Having read Dan's excellent article(s) about La Valentina and HX flushing and so on I find I have just a few (!) nagging questions.

1. I am not one to switch blends frequently, as I am loyal to Terroir's espresso and mostly brew their Southern Italian SO espresso, occasionally their Northern or decaf. I believe all three like a cool temperature -- about 92C. Is there a simplified flushing routine (number of ounces and how long to wait after the flush) and set of settings that would help me achieve this consistently? Or am I better off with a Brewtus so that I can just nail the temperature more easily?

2. I will have this machine under an eighteen and one half inch counter -- can the reservoir be easily filled without moving the machine? (I gather it is in the back, but is the filler hole on the right or left or center of the back top panel?)

Many thanks for your help!

Just to clarify, while I've read all the appropriate articles and such, I'm after a simplified routine that is based on ounces rather than observing the "water dance", if that's possible. Also, based on what I have read, I gather that 9 bar/.9 bar would be the appropriate pressure settings to get a low(ish) temperature. Assuming this is so, my other question is how many seconds to wait after the flush before pulling the shot -- again, with a 92C temp goal. And, once that first shot is pulled, even if I watch the water carefully, is the routine 2ounces or so after the dance stops? And again, how many seconds after that should I wait to pull the shot?

My apologies for my own confusion! I think I've read too much!

Q1a: Is there a simplified flushing routine (number of ounces and how long to wait after the flush) and set of settings that would help me achieve this consistently?

Yes, Bob Yellin and others measure the volume of the flush to produce the desired temperature. Eric's E61 thermocouple adapter makes it even easier (I installed one on Valentina last week after finishing the Vetrano review). All of these approaches (water dance + rebound, flush-n-go, measured flush) are valid means of managing HX. Jim's recommendations, the Buyer's Guides, a few questions, and you're in the groove in a week or two.

Q1b: Or am I better off with a Brewtus so that I can just nail the temperature more easily?

There's no arguing that managing brew temperature on a dedicated boiler espresso machine is easier than an HX. Jim's $10 Method for Temperature Tuning an HX Machine gets you in the ballpark in short order, from there you adjust by taste. With a dedicated boiler machine, you trust that the temperature control is doing its job. As Abe reported in his writeup, the Brewtus delivers consistent brew temperature with little hassle (i.e., a "lazy man's" flush and you're ready).

Q2: I will have this machine under an eighteen and one half inch counter -- can the reservoir be easily filled without moving the machine?

Not easily. The opening is in the middle and pictured on 1st-line's website. You could use a funnel arrangement. I direct plumbed it.

Q3: And, once that first shot is pulled, even if I watch the water carefully, is the routine 2ounces or so after the dance stops? And again, how many seconds after that should I wait to pull the shot?

Different HX espresso machines seem to perform better with different flush amounts and times. For La Valentina, a slightly smaller flush and a short rebound of 10-15 seconds works well.

Thank you so much, Dan! I can't tell you how much your posts have helped me -- and countless others. It's really a wonderful thing!

Thanks ever so much for all your help!

I've got a Diadema Jr (or La Valentina), when I first got the machine I investigated flush routines with a cheap DMM and a thermocouple threaded through a hole in a single basket. I was concerned at the amount of water I had to flush. I was having to flush 300mls or 10 ounces of water before the temperature got down to 90*C (lowish I know). Just lately I have been questioning the accuracy of the measurements I was relying on. My shots were tasting really sour. It took me a long time to work out the difference between bitter and sour but I'm there now... I think.

In my quest to find the sweet spot, I tried pouring shots with very short and very long flushes. After lots of coffee and confusion, I read Dan's HX love article for maybe the 7th time, and I really started to listen to the water's hiss and spit. The flush conclusion I reached was that the water dance lasted for about 100mls or 3.3 ounces. This made sense because as far as I know that is approximately the volume of the HX. I then flushed a further 50mls, then locked and poured. This routine has served me well with several beans and blends.

I used to flush too much water, but didn't really notice it amongst the milk and sugar I put in my drinks, but as time goes by I'm drinking a lot more straight espresso and my milk drinks now have a much lower 3:1 milk to espresso ratio. Any faults in preparation are more evident these days.

Hope this helps a little.

framey, this post was very helpful -- thank you! Just some clarification: After you flush (looks like for a total of about five ounces) do you wait at all until you pull the shot or do you just pull? Also, what settings are you using otherwise? (9 bar brew pressure, .9 or 1.0 bar boiler pressure -- or is it the other way around? -- or do you run your machine hotter than that? I'm after a kind of "cheat" that gets me to around 92C for the shot --
"cheat" in the sense that I'd like to try to avoid a whole lot of experimentation before I get it right. So your experience is invaluable to me!

I need a magic sentence like this: "To achieve a temp of 92C, flush for x ounces, wait for y seconds, and make sure your boiler pressure is set to q and your pump pressure to z."

On the other hand I could just do what everyone else has done and measure and experiment until I EARN my stripes!
Or I could buy the (truly ugly) Brewtus and be done with it! But I do love the looks and ergonomics of the Valentina -- and it does seem a waste to spend the extra on the Brewtus and get all that temperature versatility when I'm really after nailing things for one or two blends consistently, both of which like the same relatively low temp.

Any further insights would be most welcome!

Yeah sorry about the lack of technical info on machine setup... The omission occurred to me not long after I left the computer.

As of tonight I've got mine setup with a boiler pressure that cycles between a low of 1 bar and a high or 1.2 I did have it slightly lower when I thought it was running hot, something like 0.9 low to a 1.1 high. I'm happier with the steam recovery now too.

The brew pressure is running at approx 8.8 bar. I say approximately because I used my own homemade brew pressure gauge. There is a little flutter, but it seems to be reasonably accurate. I'm happiest when the pour start no earlier than 7 seconds and no more than 12 seconds after I hit the switch.

I tend to make lots of coffees just mucking around with blends, technique, temperature and taste. As a result my flush routine can start out at approx 5 ounces (idle machine) and as I make more shots, or if I refill the water reservoir (winter here and water is quite cool) the flush can shrink. I have been listening more than measuring, but most of the time the hissing water stops at around the 100ml mark. I usually then flush a further 30 to 50mls. After the flush I wait the few seconds it takes for the boiler light to go off then lock in the PF and start the pour.

Overall I'm trying to let taste be my guide. I'll try flushing various amounts until I like what I'm getting in the cup. In my first post I mentioned my lack of faith in the relative accuracy of my temperature measurement technique and equipment, so trying to give you a magic number, flush wise, isn't really possible. I understand why you're after such advice, but familiarity with your machine over time will be your best guide.

framey, thanks for your kind and detailed response. I must admit that after much reading and re-reading about HX flushing, things are only now starting to fall into place. I don't know why it seems so counter-intuitive -- but now I get that the wait brings things up to temp and then over, depending on the timing. My guess is I will become a flush and go person, just so I can take my time building the shot. I am wondering, though, if the upgrade to HX will be worth it, vs going to a double boiler machine instead. I currently have a Gaggia Classic and I have to say I am very pleased with the results I get, with a fairly simple short flush routine prior to building the shot. Then I just pull and go. I am noticing the usual inconsistency, however, and was hoping for more temp control by moving up to HX. It does seem equally if not incrementally complex, however -- so I may forgo that step and move onto a Brewtus perhaps. But it does seem like overkill given my modest production, since I mostly make espresso for myself, and only occassionally for guests.

Oh well, I guess all this pre-purchase analysis is part of the fun, eh?

Thanks again for your patient replies!

Mmmm, decisions, decisions.

I told framey in a PM that I decided to postpone buying a new machine because of space constraints, etc., plus this nagging feeling that any purchase would be overkill.

But the upgrade bug has bitten me very badly, and I'm down to some critical decisions.

I was seriously considering the Brewtus for its complete temp management. OTOH I am not overly fond of its looks, fit and finish, and so on and I am also somewhat concerned about the quality of its components relative to La Valentina. Also, I do have some serious blend loyalty to Terroir, so the total temp flexibility seems a bit like overkill for my usage -- one to three blends tops, low shot production levels for the most part (two doubles a day, four if there's company).

Now, the Valentina -- having read and re-read everything a gazillion times, I think (maybe) that the flushing thing might not be as complex as I thought. I am going to try the flush and go technique at first, because I am relatively slow at building my shots. My plan is to flush until the end of dance, then count down 8-10seconds, then lock and pull. My goal is 92C (lowish temps go better with Terroir), so I will adjust the boiler pressure to .9 bar, and have the vendor make sure the pump pressure runs no higher than 9 bar.

So my first question is -- does this routine make sense for the lowish temperature that I am shooting for? Can La Valentina achieve that low a temp with reasonable consistency, assuming I am up to the task personally?

I am also assuming that subsequent shots, if they are pulled within five minutes of each other, will probably not require a cooling flush. Am I right about that? If I steam separately for short milk drinks so as to build one drink at a time, would a cooling flush be more necessary between shots than if I steam all my shots in a row?

Lastly, has anyone seen the Levetta and the Semi-Auto up next to each other? Is one more attractive than the other, in your opinion? Does using the lever in any way change how you time the shot (I assume you would time right after the lever is pulled, or when the brew switch is hit, and there would be no difference in timing between the two). I guess I'm asking if the Lever preinfusion takes a few extra seconds.

Oh, one more thing -- I've been looking for Bob Yellin's flush and go technique, per Dan's advice, but I can't seem to find the specific reference. If anyone has a great description of that technique, especially for La Val, I'd be grateful.

Am I right in thinking about La Val vs Brewtus????

Argh!!!

Thanks for any and all thoughts!

I've used both the Brewtus and La Valentina; I agree it's not easy to decide among the factors you noted. If you wish to consider La Valentina or similar HX espresso machine but are concerned about temperature management, you should take a look at Monitoring Brew Temperature - E61 & Silvia, specifically the videos like the one below:

• Medium delay (5-7 minutes). Result: 201.5F
  «missing video»

It makes for nicely reproducible brew temperatures on an HX without worrying about "water dances."