Prosumer espresso machine/grinder upgrade [budget ~$2500]

#1: Post by **danbo** » November 3rd, 2020, 1:50 pm

Hey all, I just sold my Gaggia Classic & Vario due to a move and am looking to start fresh. My gripes with the Gaggia have been the slow/inconsistent temperature changes and the inability to steam and pull multiple shots without long delays. And my issues with the Vario are mostly around build quality issues mine had and the resulting inconsistent grind. That being said I'd like to get an upgrade on both fronts for my new setup.

Grinder:
I'm pretty well settled on a Niche for the grinder but I'm keeping an eye out for a used Sette 270 in case I can manage to save some money. Anything else I should consider?

Espresso Machine:
I'm looking for some advice here. I think I'm leaning more towards HX due to footprint and cost but my requirements are:

Able to pull and froth 2 lattes one after the other without issue. If I'm doing more than that I don't mind waiting a bit
Somewhat compact design (let's say ~1sqft footprint)
Under $2k, preferably in the $1500 range
Good quality, reliability, easy to work on

If buying new I'm eyeing the Mara X ($1500) but I also came across a couple of local used machines that are intriguing:

6 year old rocket R58 for roughly the same price as the new Mara

Barely used Quick Mill Silvano Evo for half the price of the Mara. Not sure how much of a sacrifice the steaming would be with this

Pasquini Livia G4 PID (same as Bezzera BZ13?) for roughly the same price as the Mara X

Expobar Brewtus III for a couple hundred less than the Mara X

I'd be happy to hear others' suggestions. I'll be purchasing in CA.

#2: Post by **Turbo Ron** » November 3rd, 2020, 2:42 pm

Go to pasquini.com in the Los Angeles area and click on Pre loved equipment. They have a Bezzera Magica at a good price, and have a one year warrantee on used equipment. I have this machine and you can easily do back to back lattes. https://pasquini.com/collections/pre-lo ... ica-mn-pid

#3: Post by **Jrodanapolis** » November 3rd, 2020, 2:46 pm

Hey Dan,

I'm in just about the same boat as you. I have a PID'd Gaggia Classic and I've bee thinking about an upgrade. I was thinking I'd go with the Niche as well, but then I came across this thread Eureka Mignon Silenzio/Perfetto/Specialita' (2018) and have started thinking about the Mignon Specialita for ~$440 from https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/. Check out page 6 of the link above... seems like the website it legit, and that is a great price considering they're about $700 over here.

I might be interested in that R58 if I was you, but the Mara also looks intriguing. I can't speak much to recommending a machine as I've only used the Gaggia, but have been researching some machines around the same price point. I'll be following to see what others recommend and what you end up with. Good luck and keep us posted!

#4: Post by **Jeff** » November 3rd, 2020, 2:51 pm

I would definitely consider the Breville Dual Boiler (BDB) in that price range. It has many features, that provide benefit in the cup, that make it exceptional at the price, or even above. Given a choice, as I can live with it's looks for what it provides in the cup, I'd take the BDB over any of the other choices on your list.

A BDB at full retail is $1,500 now, leaving room for a Niche within your budget. The BDB may go on sale this season (big "may" there), and some have had luck with using a 20%-off coupon at a major bed and bath chain.

Two places not to skimp are on beans and the grinder. By the time you get to the machine in the process, you've already set the limit of what is possible.

If I were going to go for an E61 HX machine in your shoes, I'd prefer the Mara X over other HX machines because of its unique temperature management. You can manage the temperature of an HX pretty closely with an EricS group-head thermometer (around $100), and setting up a routine around flushing and waiting patiently between shots. For two shots in rapid succession, I think you're a lot better off with the BDB at a comparable price. E61 machines are beautiful to look at, but there have been many advances in technology and manufacturing that have taken other designs beyond the E61 performance.

Used machines can be a good option, if you're willing to take them apart and rebuild them. It's not complicated, but does require the right tools. Rebuild parts for an E61 group are around $40-50. Vibe pumps often get weak on them for another $30-50. Fixing leaks or cracks can get expensive depending on where they are and if you or a friend can braze.

From what I have read and my experience with Quick Mill HX and DB machines, the Silvano should be a significant step up from your Gaggia. I have read that the steam is adequate for caps and small lattes. There are some threads here discussing experience with it, such as 5 Years with the Quick Mill Silvano While I wouldn't put it in the same class as a BDB or even the Mara X, it does seem like a compact way to reliably make good espresso from beans labeled "espresso" and perhaps dabble in some that aren't.

#5: Post by **sungvary** » November 3rd, 2020, 3:27 pm

Sees BDB recommendation - checks for Jeff.
Yup.

All is right.

#6: Post by **Arafel** » November 3rd, 2020, 4:01 pm

Another machine you might consider is the Profitec Pro 300, which is a tank of a double boiler. The Lelit Elizabeth is also likely worth a look. I like Profitec as a company; I was going to get the 300 before deciding to make the jump to the 600

November 3rd, 2020, 4:16 pm

Jrodanapolis wrote:Hey Dan,

I'm in just about the same boat as you. I have a PID'd Gaggia Classic and I've bee thinking about an upgrade. I was thinking I'd go with the Niche as well, but then I came across this thread Eureka Mignon Silenzio/Perfetto/Specialita' (2018) and have started thinking about the Mignon Specialita for ~$440 from https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/. Check out page 6 of the link above... seems like the website it legit, and that is a great price considering they're about $700 over here.
!

Good point, my friend bought an Atom from here last year and was very happy with the purchase! The only thing with those is that I lose the single dosing ability

November 3rd, 2020, 4:32 pm

Turbo Ron wrote:Go to pasquini.com in the Los Angeles area and click on Pre loved equipment. They have a Bezzera Magica at a good price, and have a one year warrantee on used equipment. I have this machine and you can easily do back to back lattes. https://pasquini.com/collections/pre-lo ... ica-mn-pid

Thanks, I hadn't considered this machine but it at the discounted price it could be a good option.

#9: Post by **Jrodanapolis** » November 3rd, 2020, 4:37 pm

danbo wrote:Good point, my friend bought an Atom from here last year and was very happy with the purchase! The only thing with those is that I lose the single dosing ability

Check this one out... seems like a very simple mod, as I was thinking the same. I would definitely be single dosing and would have to give this a try if this was the grinder I decided to go with:
Eureka Mignon Specialita Single Dosing Modification

November 3rd, 2020, 4:38 pm

Jeff wrote:I would definitely consider the Breville Dual Boiler (BDB) in that price range. It has many features, that provide benefit in the cup, that make it exceptional at the price, or even above. Given a choice, as I can live with it's looks for what it provides in the cup, I'd take the BDB over any of the other choices on your list.
...
While I wouldn't put it in the same class as a BDB or even the Mara X, it does seem like a compact way to reliably make good espresso from beans labeled "espresso" and perhaps dabble in some that aren't.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I looked at the BDB as well but read very mixed reviews with regards to reliability and build quality. I definitely don't mind getting my hands dirty and have experience working on all sort of small machines so a used machine wouldn't be a problem. However I will give the BDB another look. I don't see myself paying the same amount for it as the Mara X for example, but if I can find it for ~$1k then it would be more enticing