Profitec Pro 700 questions

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
User avatar
Bikeminded
Posts: 167
Joined: 9 years ago

#1: Post by Bikeminded »

A couple/few of questions regarding the 700. Hopefully this is the correct place to ask.....

1) Do the boilers on the 700 have drains? If they don't how important is this?

2) Does the 700 come in a 20A option?
Please correct me if I am wrong here on any of my assumptions! -> My understanding is the machines with the 20A option can allow both boilers to operate at the same time. Thus heats up faster? Are there any functional differences for pulling shots/steaming milk with alternating powered boilers (15A) versus both having ability to have power at the same time (20A)?

3) I saw a comment posted elsewhere about a pressure relief venting to the inside of the machine on the 700 versus the M58 venting to the drip tray. How significant of a design point is this?

Thanks!


...split from Profitec Pro 700 Review by moderator...

mbrown205
Posts: 34
Joined: 9 years ago

#2: Post by mbrown205 »

The Profitec 700 does NOT have any drain plugs. Per Whole Latte Love.

In a related vein, the Profitec 700 recommends in the instruction manual to prophylactically descale. However they do not specify what compounds would be recommended. Whole Latte Love says that in the US there are no descaling compounds available that meet the needs of the of the unit. They say to wait 5-8 years and send it in for a tech to descale - current cost estimate is $125) plus shipping. I'm trying to find out what Profitec recommends in Europe so I can import some.

By default the 700 does not come in a 20A option. The system is set up to alternate between boilers (prioritizing the brew boiler). Actually there is a parameter you can change that would heat both boilers at the same time, but this would overload the typical US electrical circuit. Also the cord and plug are inadequate. By my calculations the 700 might be able to survive on a 20A circuit, if you replace the cord and plug, but by calculations alone it would draw slightly more than that. When I talked to WLL they did indicate that it might be possible to upgrade these, that some commercial users might have ordered a higher amp version(they were vague in their description). If you want that higher amperage you'll have to order it up front.

While there may be a separate pressure relief valve, I don't know about it. I do know there is both a vacuum vent and a E61 drain valve that both drain to the drip tray.

Question for any one else with a Profitec 700: does your 700 pre-infuse when using the reservoir? Of course it will when plumbed, but mine infuses using boiler pressure when using the reservoir if I put the lever at the right spot in the middle position. Does anyone else find this or is it just me?
Mack Brown
North Carolina, USA

(I like ristretto)

User avatar
Bikeminded (original poster)
Posts: 167
Joined: 9 years ago

#3: Post by Bikeminded (original poster) »

Thank you for the detailed answers.
After I posted I found the 700 parts diagram in HB downloads and studied that. Seeing how the boilers are designed with the heating elements attached to the bottom. Are there access plates in the bottom of the machine to get at the elements?...or do you need to remove the boilers to get at them? (I realize would almost Never need to do, but just thinking through very long term maintenance.)

What is heat up time with 15A?

Do you notice any conditions where the machine is trying to 'catchup' with the either/or setup of the boilers ON?

Interesting on the descale. Pretty much saying use good water but don't try yourself. I did find some detailed instructions on that type of de scaling on a German site, but no place to order chemicals (yet.)

neutro
Posts: 426
Joined: 10 years ago

#4: Post by neutro »

mbrown205 wrote:The Profitec 700 does NOT have any drain plugs. Per Whole Latte Love.
Last year's production run didn't have a drain hole in the drip tray. The most recent production runs include one and a drain kit as well. EDIT: Sorry I see you were talking about *boiler* drain plugs -- not drip tray. Please disregard this.
By default the 700 does not come in a 20A option. The system is set up to alternate between boilers (prioritizing the brew boiler). Actually there is a parameter you can change that would heat both boilers at the same time, but this would overload the typical US electrical circuit. Also the cord and plug are inadequate.
I think you're right here. In Europe the Pro 700 is 20-A compatible but in North America the cord and plug is 15-A only and the machine was certified for 15-A use only. I guess one could mod it (as you say there is a controller mod to run both boilers simultaneously) but this will most certainly void the warranty and potentially burn down your whole house so don't do it.
Question for any one else with a Profitec 700: does your 700 pre-infuse when using the reservoir? Of course it will when plumbed, but mine infuses using boiler pressure when using the reservoir if I put the lever at the right spot in the middle position. Does anyone else find this or is it just me?
This was recently discussed in this thread. The executive summary is that pre-infusion is ill-defined; all E61 machines will slowly ramp up pressure at the group head due to the infusion valve, which is one definition of pre-infusion. Manual pre-wetting of the grounds under line in pressure however is not a given, and doesn't work on the Pro 700 because the brew valve actuation point on the lever course is the same as the pump activation point. I.e. when water enters the group, the pump starts.
Bikeminded wrote: What is heat up time with 15A?
A few minutes for the brew boiler; then the steam boilers takes a bit more time (but you can turn it off if you want). The two boilers are up to temp in about 15 min. People often recommend to wait up to 45 min or more until the machine is thermally stable but honestly I didn't really notice a decrease in shot quality after 20 min from cold start.
Do you notice any conditions where the machine is trying to 'catchup' with the either/or setup of the boilers ON?
Nope. It takes seconds before the boilers recover. I've not tested it in a continuous fashion as Dan did of course -- but with several shots in a row, the limiting factor was the barista in my case.

As for scale, at least it's possible to descale (there is a tank after all) and supposedly the stainless steel boilers are less prone to scale deposits than copper ones.

mbrown205
Posts: 34
Joined: 9 years ago

#5: Post by mbrown205 »

The executive summary is that pre-infusion is ill-defined; all E61 machines will slowly ramp up pressure at the group head due to the infusion valve, which is one definition of pre-infusion. Manual pre-wetting of the grounds under line in pressure however is not a given, and doesn't work on the Pro 700 because the brew valve actuation point on the lever course is the same as the pump activation point. I.e. when water enters the group, the pump starts.
Yes, thank you for the synopsis. In fact I did read that discussion, which was interesting and informative, and which prompted me to post my question. That thread covered a variety of manufacturer's E61s, which from what I read seem to have variations on infusion between manufacturers and even been units of the same manufacturer, and I wasn't sure which units were plumbed and which were not. So I couldn't really draw much of a conclusion about my 700.

To clarify: I am only discussing 700 units. I am not talking about plumbed in 700 units, mine isn't plumbed yet so I don't know about that. I probably didn't state my question clearly, sorry. My fingers get ahead of my thoughts.

I'm just noting that I get manually controllable (amount and duration of water) pre-infusion on my 700 even when using the reservoir. The middle position of the lever has to be handled carefully and precisely to achieve this. It is not immediately obvious you are infusing because it takes a while for water to start coming from the portafilter. It is silent as the pump is not on. Of course the pump pressure meter stays at 0. So it is easy to bypass this, as there is no 'stop' or 'click' at that point. Only when I move the lever up a bit more does the pump start and the timer kick in. I can only assume that the water coming out is propelled by boiler tank pressure.

Am wondering if what I experience with pre-infusion is consistent between all, or many, reservoir-using Profitec 700 systems or is it just mine? Design or fluke? Personally I find it a desirable 'feature'.
Mack Brown
North Carolina, USA

(I like ristretto)

mbrown205
Posts: 34
Joined: 9 years ago

#6: Post by mbrown205 »

I agree with other comments made here, the 700 takes about 15 minutes to heat up from "cold" boilers, a bit more to stabilize, and another 20 minutes for the cup warmer to warm cups. My 700 unit's cord, plug, and wall socket never run warm, so they are sized properly for even peak loads.

Once you brew, it only takes a few seconds to regain brew temperature. Literally. May be longer if there is a large draw of fresh water into the boiler, for example if you use the hot water wand to fill a teapot.

Something I haven't seen discussed as much: My steam meter runs at 1.5 bar. Even a fairly short blast of steam will bring it down to 1 bar. I get up to 40 seconds of hard steam, bringing it down to about .5 bar (starts to tail off after 25-30 seconds). It then takes a couple of minutes to rebuild pressure. It varies depending on whether the 700 adds fresh water to the steam boiler. I think this is because the brew boiler has priority in heating and also because it takes more energy to make steam than just hot water.

I've not actually timed this last, my sense is it's pretty normal, someone may have more precise figures.

I wish they would make units with modular tanks so you could pick the size tank you want (sort of like selecting your disks on a computer). I would note that even on automobiles, some can be had with larger or additional fuel tanks. I would always upgrade the steam boiler size.
Mack Brown
North Carolina, USA

(I like ristretto)

neutro
Posts: 426
Joined: 10 years ago

#7: Post by neutro »

mbrown205 wrote: I'm just noting that I get manually controllable (amount and duration of water) pre-infusion on my 700 even when using the reservoir. The middle position of the lever has to be handled carefully and precisely to achieve this. It is not immediately obvious you are infusing because it takes a while for water to start coming from the portafilter.
I never noticed it but it's not really a feature and certainly not a defect. If you can open the brew valve without hitting the pump switch, then there's an open path from the brew tank to the group; as you say, vapor pressure is probably enough to make a bit of water dribble. How long do you have to wait for that to happen? It certainly takes more than a few seconds...

On my plumbed-in unit, it's pretty hard for me to hit a point where the brew valve is open but the pump is still off. This depends on the exact forward-backward positioning of the switch (which perhaps can be adjusted). In my case in fact, I was able to start the pump without opening the brew valve (i.e. pump working, no water getting through).

It is to be noted that if I turn the machine off and open the brew valve, then water goes through the group under line pressure.

mbrown205
Posts: 34
Joined: 9 years ago

#8: Post by mbrown205 »

I'm not sure exactly how long it takes the water to come through because I'm never quite sure when I've "hit the spot" to allow the water through.

It seems (my impression, no factual basis) to take 2-3 seconds. Then it comes through at maybe 1/3 or 1/2 the pace it would when the pump is on.

What's interesting is that Whole Latte Love told me, before I purchased, that E61 groups do not have ANY infusion on reservoir systems, and once connected to the plumbing, only then would I be able to get infusion.

There is such a high level of confusion about this. That's why I'd like to analyze it.

HB, please let us know if we should start a separate topic about this, and how to export relevant posts from this thread to the new one.
Mack Brown
North Carolina, USA

(I like ristretto)

neutro
Posts: 426
Joined: 10 years ago

#9: Post by neutro »

My take on this is simply that on your unit, you're able to open the brew valve before engaging the pump while on mine I can't. The difference may be the pump switch sticking further less than a millimeter more on my unit.

This enables you to do "pre-wetting" -- under brew boiler vapor pressure (it would be line pressure for me). This is separate from the E61 group built-in pressure profiling due to the infusion valve being compressed. As Dan noted, the pressure profiling is not registered by the pump manometer as the capillary tube is at the pump outlet.

If pre-wetting the grounds is something that a potential buyer really really wants, then I guess the Pro 700 is sub-optimal: there is no guarantee that it would be possible on a given unit (as yours work but not mine). One could disassemble the pump switch and try to recess it a bit more to enable the pre-wetting. But it's still separate from the pressure profiling the E61 group offers.