lagoon wrote:Another nice feature of both models is the ability to switch off the steam boiler. If you're only going to be making espresso for a few days straight, you can leave the steam boiler off. This means a quicker startup, and less energy consumption.

That said, you should ensure you do use the steam boiler at least once a week, and pull some hot water so there is fresh water turnover.

I'm not sure how you would get a quicker startup.. there still is a thermosiphon that has to heat up the E61 from my understanding of how the E61 works.. I'm guessing the TS is connected to the brew boiler that heats the E61. But whether the steam boiler is on or off, I'd think the E61 would take the same time to warm up. Profitec says the machine is warmed up in 10 or 15 minutes in their manual. I don't see how this could be true.. The boiler is up to temp in about 10 minutes, but the E61 takes about 40 minutes to stabilize by the circulating effect of brew water running through it. At 10 minutes, my E61 is about 170F and if I pulled a shot then, I'd get brew water about 185F as the E61 is is so massive it drags down the brew water temp. Most E61s that stabilize from the brew boiler take about 40 minutes to stabilize and the offset on the Pro600/700 brew boiler PID setting should assume a stable/hot E61. If your E61 is not stable/hot, the PID setting will not accurately reflect the brew water temperature. The Lelit Bianca uses the superheated steam boiler to heat the E61 on startup and this cuts down warm up to 15-20 minutes. I think Lelit is one of the only vendors I know that do this.

I do like the ability to turn off the boiler but I've seen the caution about stagnating water in the steam boiler. I will be doing at least one Americano a day for the GF so between that and heating cups I'm hoping the water turnover will be enough for maintence purposes.

In regards to warm up time I'd rater err on the side of fully warmed up just to remove one more variable on the path to repeatable processes that will give me frustration free espresso every morning. Something the Gaggia most certainly did NOT do. A wifi AC outlet will be used to allow an hour of warm up before anything is touched.

One other point is about the offset. I have read many threads about how wildly variable this can be from machine to machine. I have seen Jim's method of watching for flash boiling and this reads like it is pretty straightforward. Having said that (and since I'm not buying a Scace) I did ask the company I'm planning on buying from (Idrinkcoffee) if they would warm up the machine and set the offset for me before shipping. They said they don't do this and ship the machines unopened and that they have "not had problems".

Two things I'm wondering. Am I asking for too much for them to heat up and calibrate the machine for me? Have they not had any problems because Profitec has magically improved the factory calibrations or because most customers never check or think about this at all?

I don't want to be a difficult customer and to be honest I don't know how time consuming this process is for an experienced tech with the proper gear but if I'm spending $4000 I would like to have a tightly calibrated machine as a starting point.

Bluenoser wrote:I'm not sure how you would get a quicker startup.. there still is a thermosiphon that has to heat up the E61 from my understanding of how the E61 works.. I'm guessing the TS is connected to the brew boiler that heats the E61. But whether the steam boiler is on or off, I'd think the E61 would take the same time to warm up. Profitec says the machine is warmed up in 10 or 15 minutes in their manual. I don't see how this could be true.. The boiler is up to temp in about 10 minutes, but the E61 takes about 40 minutes to stabilize by the circulating effect of brew water running through it. At 10 minutes, my E61 is about 170F and if I pulled a shot then, I'd get brew water about 185F as the E61 is is so massive it drags down the brew water temp. Most E61s that stabilize from the brew boiler take about 40 minutes to stabilize and the offset on the Pro600/700 brew boiler PID setting should assume a stable/hot E61. If your E61 is not stable/hot, the PID setting will not accurately reflect the brew water temperature. The Lelit Bianca uses the superheated steam boiler to heat the E61 on startup and this cuts down warm up to 15-20 minutes. I think Lelit is one of the only vendors I know that do this.

Might depend on how their machine is programmed, I seem to recall that some DBs switch back and forth between the two boilers during start up to bring both up to temp simultaneously without exceeding 15 amps. With the service boiler off, all power can go to the brew boiler.

Yes.. while that is true.. no water from the steam boiler goes through the E61 group and so it would have no direct effect on warm up.. With the steam boiler off, yes the brew boiler might heat up a bit quicker.. but likely not that much.. maybe a minute or two. However, it takes the convection currents cycling the brew water through the group to heat up the group.. so don't think you'd save any significant time from a normal 40 minute warmup. Not that I'd advocate getting a group thermometer for a DB (as they are $200 in canada). But if you had one, you'd see how long it takes for the group to warm up. I have an IR Fluke thermometer and you can place a piece of matte black tape on group and point thermometer on it to see when the temp maxes and that will also tell you when your group is fully heated.. All little things to do to learn about characteristics of your new machine.

I thought I had read some vendors in US would test/calibrate their machines.. Sort of interesting. I bought my $2k3 Pro500 from IDC. I had a problem with slow rebound. When I contacted Profitec directly they didn't want to speak to me and basically said for better performance get a higher machine.. and then said to talk to the vendor (IDC). In talking to IDC, they didn't really have any technical answer for me and they contacted Profitec.. This went back and forth a few times and I just dropped the issue. I did have one repair on the machine (14 mo in) and IDC paid for shipping both ways (although took 2 months). Overall, they were okay. If IDC is really the only point of contact, I'm surprised they don't test machines to ensure nothing has been damaged from shipping from Germany, and to ensure device is set up properly. Setting up a machine costs time and money and I guess they think it is not necessary. However, I wouldn't be happy as a customer as I'm not sure how much confidence I have with Profitec's knowledge of their own machines. The PID setting on my HX as sent had to be altered before I got proper brew water temp.

I think Jim's post on setting the offset by looking for flash boiling is fairly easy and accurate and so I wouldn't worry about IDC calibrating that. I will say the build quality, in general, is very high on the Profitec machine I have (other than their placement of the SSR, which failed because it was likely too close to the boiler and was overheating)..

Hot water in the steam boiler can cause a bit of corrosion (I've read) over time, so many recommend fully changing the water at some interval. I empty my steam boiler about once every 1-2 months.

Both Machines are excellent choices. Something to consider is the size of the 600 vs the 700. The 600 is about 1 inch smaller in depth and width. This may be an issue if you are limited on space or putting it under a cabinet. The 600 also has sideways steam and water valves which I find unattractive.

I am considering the Mechanica IV due to size and the rotary pump. I can't get past the fact that it doesn't have PID.

Question....How important is PID on a machine like this? How much water would you need to flush to keep the temp satisfactory???

Although a pid has more accurate control of temperature most believe they are not necessary in a hx machine
The reason is you control the espresso temperature with a cooling flush.
As far as the second question each machine is different and even the same models will have slight differences so being able to give an exact flush time is difficult



Randy

You said you want a machine to last for the next 10-20 years. Get the 700. You might be a milk-drinking, steam needing, plumbed in latte aficionado in 10 years.

In going back and forth with Bluenoser I think we kind of agree on a bunch of things.

1) Profitec seems to make very solid machines in a very Italian way. Which is to say well made but to kind of low tolerances (offset, etc...).
2) A DE1 is an interesting thing for about $1000CAD too much money without a proven track record for durability. (More my point than his)
3) A Londinium R would probably make you smile every morning for a LONG while. Unfortunately I don't have the room for the lever.

spearfish25 wrote:You said you want a machine to last for the next 10-20 years. Get the 700. You might be a milk-drinking, steam needing, plumbed in latte aficionado in 10 years.

I doubt this is me. Seems kind of backwards. When I started in wine I drank new world fruit bombs. When I quit wine it was because I refused anything but Grand Cru Burgundies. Old and white if you have it.

Another cheaper option is the breville 920. It will make espresso as good as if not better than pro700. It can be easily modded for flow profiling. Doesnt have that old world aesthetic but more temp stable than any E61. Capable steamer. Feed it good water and should do 5 years with some normal maintenance. then you decide on next one.

You haven't lived until you see the Pro 700 steam with the new 2.3 bar PID/valve setup.