Poor build quality (ECM) and others?
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jgiannis
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 3 years ago
Hi. New to the site and just started looking into espresso prosumer products. I will skip right over the $500 range products and spend about $2k-$3k on my espresso machine.
Given that price point, So far I have been drawn to the Lelit Bianca and ECM Synchronika. (I want the flow control, double boiler, upgradable handles for appearance-I also like the ECM style of levers; not sure what you call the ones that spring back to position rather than the twist knobs I see on everything else.)
However, although I have often read about excellent build quality on the ECM, there is a YouTube video of a German repairman who has me very concerned and doubting their quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl7Xxt3oNPM
Does anyone have any reason to not believe this video?
Is this type of cheap build quality something that is common throughout the $3k prosumer machines?
I've read that these things should be lasting 10 years or so. I'm definitely hoping for 5-7 years with one before it starts to break down.
Thanks!
Given that price point, So far I have been drawn to the Lelit Bianca and ECM Synchronika. (I want the flow control, double boiler, upgradable handles for appearance-I also like the ECM style of levers; not sure what you call the ones that spring back to position rather than the twist knobs I see on everything else.)
However, although I have often read about excellent build quality on the ECM, there is a YouTube video of a German repairman who has me very concerned and doubting their quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl7Xxt3oNPM
Does anyone have any reason to not believe this video?
Is this type of cheap build quality something that is common throughout the $3k prosumer machines?
I've read that these things should be lasting 10 years or so. I'm definitely hoping for 5-7 years with one before it starts to break down.
Thanks!
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LObin
- Posts: 1833
- Joined: 7 years ago
Hi! Welcome to HB!
Concerning ECM quality, I haven't heard much bad comments over the years from ECM owners. Quite the contrary actually.
Most, if not all the issues from the video you linked could be user related.
Let me explain: Heavy users will often put such machines on timers from morning till night. After 2 years, the extra 8 hours or so per day equates easily to an extra year. It's no excuse since the machine could very well still be in a near mint condition after 3 years. With proper care...
1st, the vacuum relief valve has a life expectancy of about 2 years. Top. Serviceable parts, cheap and widely available. If it has been leaking or not sealing properly over the last 6 months or so, it can explain some of the other issues.
2nd, the green residue around the boiler fittings. Probably caused by a prolonged exposition to water from the faulty vacuum breaker.
3rd, the Sirai Pstat. First of all, there is no such thing as a cheap Sirai pstat. There are cheaper pressurestats available and also a more expensive 30 amp commercial Sirai pstat that is sometimes used in prosumer machines (depending on available space and amperage). The 20 amp Sirai in the video is a reliable and a widely used model. I'm suspecting the poles are "burned" because the pstat has been overloaded due to the faulty vacuum relief valve. It could also not work properly because if it had a scaled up membrane from bad water. Which leads to the 4th point...
4th, chemical reaction between the heating element (copper or brass) and the stainless boiler. I'm not a chemist by any mean but my guess is that this boiler has some major scale build up inside. Bad water will kill any espresso machine with a pressurized system. Whether it's a 30k machine or a $150 one. Being a heat exchanger, the water in the boiler is not used to brew espresso. Therefore, the same water can sit in the boiler for a very long period of time if the user doesn't add in his regular maintenance a complete emptying and refilling.
Of course, these are all suspicions. Only the owner of that machine knows what's been in there and how much care and attention he gave it.
Whether you go for a Bianca, a Synchronika, a Europiccola, a DE1, a Londinium or a Linea mini, they will all require regular maintenance and service (which you should be able to do all/most of these yourself and sometimes with the help of this community) but most of all, PROPER ESPRESSO MACHINE WATER! Prevention is the best medicine!
Hope this helps!
Cheers!
Concerning ECM quality, I haven't heard much bad comments over the years from ECM owners. Quite the contrary actually.
Most, if not all the issues from the video you linked could be user related.
Let me explain: Heavy users will often put such machines on timers from morning till night. After 2 years, the extra 8 hours or so per day equates easily to an extra year. It's no excuse since the machine could very well still be in a near mint condition after 3 years. With proper care...
1st, the vacuum relief valve has a life expectancy of about 2 years. Top. Serviceable parts, cheap and widely available. If it has been leaking or not sealing properly over the last 6 months or so, it can explain some of the other issues.
2nd, the green residue around the boiler fittings. Probably caused by a prolonged exposition to water from the faulty vacuum breaker.
3rd, the Sirai Pstat. First of all, there is no such thing as a cheap Sirai pstat. There are cheaper pressurestats available and also a more expensive 30 amp commercial Sirai pstat that is sometimes used in prosumer machines (depending on available space and amperage). The 20 amp Sirai in the video is a reliable and a widely used model. I'm suspecting the poles are "burned" because the pstat has been overloaded due to the faulty vacuum relief valve. It could also not work properly because if it had a scaled up membrane from bad water. Which leads to the 4th point...
4th, chemical reaction between the heating element (copper or brass) and the stainless boiler. I'm not a chemist by any mean but my guess is that this boiler has some major scale build up inside. Bad water will kill any espresso machine with a pressurized system. Whether it's a 30k machine or a $150 one. Being a heat exchanger, the water in the boiler is not used to brew espresso. Therefore, the same water can sit in the boiler for a very long period of time if the user doesn't add in his regular maintenance a complete emptying and refilling.
Of course, these are all suspicions. Only the owner of that machine knows what's been in there and how much care and attention he gave it.
Whether you go for a Bianca, a Synchronika, a Europiccola, a DE1, a Londinium or a Linea mini, they will all require regular maintenance and service (which you should be able to do all/most of these yourself and sometimes with the help of this community) but most of all, PROPER ESPRESSO MACHINE WATER! Prevention is the best medicine!
Hope this helps!
Cheers!
LMWDP #592
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jgiannis (original poster)
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 3 years ago
Thanks so much for the reply. Yes it does help.
On a slightly different subject, I see you listed some other machines at the end of your post. Are these machines comparable to the Bianca or Synchronika?
Or rather, is there a list of comparable machines that anyone would recommend? My main points of interest are:
- $2k-$3k price point. Preferably maybe $2.5k but I will consider anything up to $3k.
- Very reliable (hopefully a 10+ year lifespan) and easy for owner-maintenance (ie the basic stuff. I am not an electrician or mechanic.)
- double boiler with flow control, and great milk steamer.
- built in timer (though I plan on buying an acaia lunar)
- great looking and customizable appearance (usually the black knobs can be replaced with wood from what I've seen).
- And obviously great results but I imagine that anything that has the above features will provide similar result, if not identical.
On a slightly different subject, I see you listed some other machines at the end of your post. Are these machines comparable to the Bianca or Synchronika?
Or rather, is there a list of comparable machines that anyone would recommend? My main points of interest are:
- $2k-$3k price point. Preferably maybe $2.5k but I will consider anything up to $3k.
- Very reliable (hopefully a 10+ year lifespan) and easy for owner-maintenance (ie the basic stuff. I am not an electrician or mechanic.)
- double boiler with flow control, and great milk steamer.
- built in timer (though I plan on buying an acaia lunar)
- great looking and customizable appearance (usually the black knobs can be replaced with wood from what I've seen).
- And obviously great results but I imagine that anything that has the above features will provide similar result, if not identical.
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LObin
- Posts: 1833
- Joined: 7 years ago
My pleasure!
I listed these other machines only to highlight the fact that proper water is needed no matter the type of espresso machines you have.
Out of that random list, the only other machine that has the features in your shopping list is the Decent DE1 (and some others as well).
You can add the Profitec pro 700 to the list (pretty much identical under the hood to the ECM Synchronika).
There could be other options out there if you simply add a flow control kit to another E61/double boiler.
Tons of information and topics on this subject on HB!
Happy shopping!
I listed these other machines only to highlight the fact that proper water is needed no matter the type of espresso machines you have.
Out of that random list, the only other machine that has the features in your shopping list is the Decent DE1 (and some others as well).
You can add the Profitec pro 700 to the list (pretty much identical under the hood to the ECM Synchronika).
There could be other options out there if you simply add a flow control kit to another E61/double boiler.
Tons of information and topics on this subject on HB!
Happy shopping!
LMWDP #592
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Jeff
- Team HB
- Posts: 6941
- Joined: 19 years ago
I'd also include the Lelit Bianca on my short list.
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kaptain_zero
- Posts: 38
- Joined: 3 years ago
I think LObin is correct regarding that video and I'll just add a few more things.
I do not know if it was scaled up, but I can say, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the corrosion and leaking was caused by someone who just didn't care and kept using machine until it died. My Profitec Pro 500 is only 1 month old and I can hear that there is the tiniest of leak from likely the $15 pressure relief valve, and that leak is likely caused by a tiny nick in the internal o-ring. Very easy to correct. I am aware of it, I have checked to see if there was any actual water/steam leakage of concern and there is nothing, so I'll just replace the o-ring when I get it.
The machine in the video is a single boiler HX machine. No, that has nothing to do with the problems found, but the boiler on an HX machine is so hot that any water leaking out of any joint on the boiler would be making sizzling/hissing sounds. Ignoring such sounds leads to damage. Just snugging up the bolts on that heater should have corrected the slight leak that had been ignored, and eventually caused the corrosion.
These Prosumer grade machines are built to a price point. They are NOT bulletproof commercial machines that cost far more, and even those commercial machines need regular maintenance.
If you take care of your machine, I would expect it to last several decades.
I do not know if it was scaled up, but I can say, beyond a shadow of doubt, that the corrosion and leaking was caused by someone who just didn't care and kept using machine until it died. My Profitec Pro 500 is only 1 month old and I can hear that there is the tiniest of leak from likely the $15 pressure relief valve, and that leak is likely caused by a tiny nick in the internal o-ring. Very easy to correct. I am aware of it, I have checked to see if there was any actual water/steam leakage of concern and there is nothing, so I'll just replace the o-ring when I get it.
The machine in the video is a single boiler HX machine. No, that has nothing to do with the problems found, but the boiler on an HX machine is so hot that any water leaking out of any joint on the boiler would be making sizzling/hissing sounds. Ignoring such sounds leads to damage. Just snugging up the bolts on that heater should have corrected the slight leak that had been ignored, and eventually caused the corrosion.
These Prosumer grade machines are built to a price point. They are NOT bulletproof commercial machines that cost far more, and even those commercial machines need regular maintenance.
If you take care of your machine, I would expect it to last several decades.
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mathof
- Posts: 1487
- Joined: 13 years ago
I see them described as "joystick" controls, but maybe there are other names.jgiannis wrote: (I want the flow control, double boiler, upgradable handles for appearance-I also like the ECM style of levers; not sure what you call the ones that spring back to position rather than the twist knobs I see on everything else.)
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jgood
- Posts: 907
- Joined: 6 years ago
I've had my QuickMill E61 for almost 3 years without issue -- I am sure the ECMs or other major brands of E61 machines are also built well. But be sure you buy from a reputable dealer who understands the machine as you will no doubt have questions as you start out, and there is always the possibility of something needing attention, especially over the long term.
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jgiannis (original poster)
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 3 years ago
Thanks for all the replies.
As for buying from a reputable dealer, does any ody know of any in the Los Angeles area? I didn't have luck finding any.
Also, why not buy direct from the manufacturer, and simply call them (or a dealer) for repair/maintenance when needed?
As for buying from a reputable dealer, does any ody know of any in the Los Angeles area? I didn't have luck finding any.
Also, why not buy direct from the manufacturer, and simply call them (or a dealer) for repair/maintenance when needed?
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Jeff
- Team HB
- Posts: 6941
- Joined: 19 years ago
Many of us buy through one of the reputable specialists that support mail-order customers. As far as I know, the manufacturers don't sell direct to consumers, at least in North America.
My experience with a mail-order E61 HX from a major manufacturer was that nothing needed repair for several years, long after the warranty had expired. The vendor I worked with for something like 15 years on that machine helped me diagnose and select proper repair parts, saving me time and cost. Most repairs on an "E61 box" can be handled at home with a simple set of hand tools. Getting those tools and confidence is also valuable in performing the routine maintenance beyond cleaning that they require, such as replacing gaskets and other wear parts every few years. There is lots of help here for basic repairs, and quite a few that enjoy jumping on on those "huh?" problems as well.
My experience with a mail-order E61 HX from a major manufacturer was that nothing needed repair for several years, long after the warranty had expired. The vendor I worked with for something like 15 years on that machine helped me diagnose and select proper repair parts, saving me time and cost. Most repairs on an "E61 box" can be handled at home with a simple set of hand tools. Getting those tools and confidence is also valuable in performing the routine maintenance beyond cleaning that they require, such as replacing gaskets and other wear parts every few years. There is lots of help here for basic repairs, and quite a few that enjoy jumping on on those "huh?" problems as well.
