One or two grinders, dosage by weight for espresso and/or drip ?

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ChefRayB
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Joined: 4 months ago

#1: Post by ChefRayB »

Greetings,

I am currently looking to either buy 1 or 2 grinder dose by weight for making espresso and drip coffee.

Below are my requirements

Lifestyle/personal preference
- Grind Brew Taste: I don't know yet, I think I like both clarity and body. Depends the beans and mood I guess. Still newbie.
- Quantity: Grind 350g per week mostly
- Roast Type: Light or medium roast, I haven't adventured with dark roast yet
- Usage: 2 espresso per day and 3 drips per week for 2 people
- Freshness: 1 fresh bag per week, don't plan to freeze beans unless I get a big discount.
- Skillset: Newbie (3 years of espresso, 3 years of coffee drip )
- Machinery: Breville Smart Grinder Pro, Breville Barista Pro to be upgraded to ECM Machineka MAX (HX), Mackmaster for drip.


Features:
- Budget: $1k-$1.5k USD
- Dosage on demand
- Zero or 0.1 retention I don't care there is 0.1 variance.
- Dosage by weight: Must be dosage by weight. With a small Hopper ~1 bag size ( it's for home )
- Quality of Grind: I want to really be able to taste the flavors, I want the best size distribution to have a good taste
- No static: Must not accumulate static, if RPM is low I read there is much less static.
- Noise: I prefer quiet, I don't like loud noise.
- Grinding Speed g/s: I don't care to wait a bit more time.
- RPM: I don't know how that is relevant for my usage.
- Burr Size: Flat burr 65++mm or conical burr 60mm++
- cleaning: Prefer something that takes a few seconds to open without tools and I can easily clean

The following are the models I am eyeing:

- Allground Sense grinder (H2 2024) because it's dosage by weight, 2 presets, 65mm flat burrs for espresso and seems like the easiest grinder to clean. The Allground probrew is single dosage by cup but doesn't support dosage by weight, therefore, won't qualify unless I give up dosage by weight.

- Eureka Mignon Libra 65 All purpose dosage by weight ( H2 2024) for Espresso and/or Drip because firstly it's dosage by weight with 2 presets, 65mm flat burrs, shouldn't be too loud and you can change the burrs. Cleaning is okay and price will be similar to AllGround.

- Compak Fino Grinder (H1 2024) for Espresso and/or Drip because there is an integrated scale at least when putting the coffee beans in the cup, 63 conical burrs, and is meant for a single dosage.

Any other suggestion one would consider.

Thank you

ChefRayB

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Jeff
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#2: Post by Jeff »

There isn't a burr set out there at any price that excels at both filter and espresso or at both body and clarity.

There are compromises that aren't terrible, but it is easy to pick other burr sets that are better at one or the other.

I would look into the downsides of a hopper-fed grinder before deciding on GbW. These include faster degradation of beans in the hopper and needing to grind through several grams of coffee at the start of every session and with any significant change in grind size. You will never have a hopper-fed grinder with 0.1 g retention or even close. More than that sits half-broken on top of the burrs. Another is that many don't support the better burrs on the market today. Buy a hopper-fed grinder and you're pretty much stuck with the manufacturer's traditional burr (or a near replica of it in a longer-lasting material). Exceptions would be those fitting Mazzer-pattern 64 mm, 83 mm, or EK-pattern 98 mm burrs that spin in the proper direction.

ChefRayB (original poster)
Posts: 14
Joined: 4 months ago

#3: Post by ChefRayB (original poster) »

Hi Jeff,

re: Bean Degradation, I use fresh roasted 340g bag per week. Would the bean degradation inside the hopper make a substantial difference for 7 days ?

re: grind size / losing coffee beans, I was thinking of buying 2 grinders because I often switch between espresso and drip/pour.

re: burr quality/support, I believe Eureka and AllGround is a 64mm flat burrs that are interchangeable and they do come with good quality blades for the price.

So basically one would use their weekly 340g bag by weighting the beans into tubes of 18g and use them for double shot espresso (e.g. 1:2 ratio = 36g ) and/or drip (e.g. 1:17 ratio =300ml ) and simply buy a less expensive grinder either single dose grinders or low retention grinder for each espresso and drip usage (e.g. DF64 gen 2 64mm flat burr and niche duo 83mm flat burr)
So GbW is not worth it for home usage.

Thank You

ChefRayB

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Jeff
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#4: Post by Jeff »

Buy two grinders for two different burrs. A 64 mm flat with SSP or Option-O burrs for espresso and something like a Follow Ode for filter is one good option. Some of the burr sets work reasonably well for both if you're not looking for traditional espresso.

The traditional burrs in the grinders you are looking at are, well, traditional. Good for traditional espresso roasts and that's about it. Check it, but I don't think either are compatible with SJ-pattern burrs. Not all 64 mm burrs are interchangeable.

Keeping your beans in a sealable canister and reasonably cool and out of sunlight will help them last. I keep mine on the shady counter in either a pop-top canister or the roaster's zip bag with the valve taped closed. I weigh out the 12-20 g I need for a given cup and then reseal the container. It adds maybe 30 seconds to the time it takes to make a cup.

GbW and a hopper-fed grinder makes sense in a shop where you're going through a hopper or more a day with only small grind changes as the day progresses. At home, it is harder for me to argue for, especially with premium beans or changing beans regularly.

ChefRayB (original poster)
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#5: Post by ChefRayB (original poster) »

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the guidance and tips. So in other words, I should evaluate a grinder based on the burrs types whether I want a classical type of espresso/drip or whether I want to adventure myself in other types of burrs for different flavor profiles. Additionally if I am willing to put 1.5k on a grinder, it might be advantageous to get a grinder that supports multiple burrs and by foregoing GbW, I open myself to a bigger selection of grinders.

The Lagom P64 is great, supports multiple burrs but cost 2.5k+TAX CAD. Is there another product that is cheaper that supports the same functionality (e.g. multiple burrs, variable, easy to change the burrs and clear).

Re:Eureka Mignon pro ginders, in the Milan 2023 show, I believe Eureka is planning to release 4 burrs ( All purpose Black, Espresso Speciality Black, Espresso Speciality Taste Black, Brew Special Black). Based on their kiosk display, 3 out of 4 flat burrs are for light-medium roast. If you are interested, I've timed the youtube video to the section a youtuber commentator shows the Eureka Kioske display http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDBoHulDjNg I am not well versed in grinders and/or the mignon models, hopefully, the grinder is not too expensive and might be a competitor to the Lagom P64 at a lower price point...

I'll be reading more on the grinders & burr types, I think it's a good idea to invest in a grinder that gives me choices on the burrs types. Thanks

Regards,

ChefRayB

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Jeff
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#6: Post by Jeff »

I have yet to have a good filter cup from traditional espresso burr sets. Maybe it's a skill issue.

The least expensive powered grinder that I enjoy for either just espresso or both espresso and filter is the Option-O Lagom Mini.

The Fellow Ode is a well-liked, affordable motorized grinder for filter. Several hand grinders are also excellent for filter.

I've heard the recent DF64 models are less finicky and a bit better built than the earlier ones. They with something like SSP Cast v2 or Option-O Mizen (not ES) burrs might meet your needs in a single grinder.

I'd also watch for a used P64 and snag it if it comes up at an affordable price for you.

I'll consider that Eureka can make burrs that are competitive with SSP and Option-O when they start getting positive reviews from advanced users who have already tried several burr sets across multiple, medium- and light-roast coffees. Same with Mazzer. Until then, I remain both picky and uninterested. Eureka makes a good hopper-fed grinder. They aren't really suitable for single dosing.

ChefRayB (original poster)
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#7: Post by ChefRayB (original poster) »

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the recommendation. Interestingly, I came to a similar conclusion after reading a few articles/forum posts and familiarizing myself with the blade geometry. If one would choose to go with Eureka, it would be only advantageous if their burrs are much less expensive and Eureka next generation with 65mm flat burrs would support variable speed. Therefore the likes of DF64V might be more advantageous because you can control the speed depending on usage (e.g. slow speed, less fines better for pour/drip) and there are many 64mm (SSP HU, SSP MP, SSP Brew, SSP Cast, SSP Cast V2, etc...)

Really It boils down to skipping the GbW for home usage, if single grinder (budget, counter space) for both espresso and brew, go with a 64mm SSP Cast V2 or a 64mm Option-M Mizen.

If you can have 2 grinders, which two 64mm would you go for ? ( Option-O Lagom Mini is 48mm)

I'm very likely going to end up with 2 grinders, now the next thing in my head is should I go with 64mm (e.g. DF64V) or 83mm (e.g. DF83V soon)? Wonder where will the industry likely settle down in the long term...64mm or 83mm sets ? after 100mm eventually they will start to get too big for either single dose (18g double espresso) or low dose coffee (40g brew 2 cup of coffee) .

I am currently thinking of buying 2 identical grinders (e.g. DF64V or DF83V) with 2 different blades because don't see myself each morning doing a drip/pour adjustment and at then at10-11am or 12:30pm having to adjust to espresso...too lazy, impatient and limited time... where the GbW came in the picture....

Thank you

ChefRayB

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Jeff
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#8: Post by Jeff »

I adjust a P64, a 98 mm LeverCraft Ultra, and a Bentwood between espresso and filter grinds regularly. I don't find it bothersome and only occasionally forget to adjust on a sleepy morning.

The Bentwood is the easiest to adjust or check with big numbers in the window and a big dial, but is huge.

Personal opinion follows - I drink mainly light to very light roasts

Hard to say for 64 mm burrs. I'd go for a single P64 over two DF-whatevers for the more robust construction and better workflow. I'm basing that on my experience with a DF64 v3,v4, something like that, with bellows, anti-popcorn added and declumper removed. I'd probably pick 64 MPs or Option-O Mizen for my tastes. I have not tried 64 "brew" or whatever they're called in 64.

ChefRayB (original poster)
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#9: Post by ChefRayB (original poster) »

Jeff wrote:I adjust a P64, a 98 mm LeverCraft Ultra, and a Bentwood between espresso and filter grinds regularly. I don't find it bothersome and only occasionally forget to adjust on a sleepy morning...
You have patience:) For me, I tend to use the same type of beans for a while, my spouse might use it and I also don't see myself turning that device because I will need to remember the position Perhaps when they offer digital setup on the grinder with 1-2 pre-sets that automatically dials the grinder, it was showcased in Milan 2023 sho.
Jeff wrote: Hard to say for 64 mm burrs. I'd go for a single P64 over two DF-whatevers for the more robust construction and better workflow. I'm basing that on my experience with a DF64 v3,v4, something like that, with bellows, anti-popcorn added and declumper removed. I'd probably pick 64 MPs or Option-O Mizen for my tastes. I have not tried 64 "brew" or whatever they're called in 64.

I'll go read on the P64 vs DF64V. It seems the DF64 workflow is not on point for you. I saw the youtube videos of DF64V and it seems good enough from a newbie perspective. I feel that my current Breville Grinder Pro has perfect workflow with the cup and it's a bit annoying to open and close the cap....

Cheers

ChefRayB

ChefRayB (original poster)
Posts: 14
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#10: Post by ChefRayB (original poster) »

Finished reading some reviews, my preliminary thoughts are:

Roasting Beans light-medium roast for espresso and drip/pourover
1x DF64V with 64mm Cast SL v2 for espresso ( modern espresso, a bit more sweet, spouse will also like it)
1x DF64V with 64mm MP v2 for filter ( clarity and uniformity)

Cost is DF64V @ 800 CAD x 2 = 1600 CAD+tax + burrs @ 275 CAD x 2 = 550 CAD+tax = 2150 CAD + Tax

We are talking about ~2.5k CAD investment for 2 64mm grinders with variable speed. Coming from Breville Grinder Pro.

Rationale: DF64 has variable speed, not too loud, support many aftermarket burrs, easy to change them, small footprint on counter, accept workflow imperfection, accept on low RPM + light roast there is a risk of stoppage/stalling, accept no plasma, accept no feeder/pre-breaker. The 64mm burrs are less expensive than 83mmm, it allows you to explore more burrs. if one grinder breaks after a few years I can leverage the same 64mm burrs because I have two identical ones.

The timescore sculpture 064 seems harder to change the burrs, the Ode Gen 2 seems to be better for filter. The DF83 is more expensive, has bigger footprint, and I don't think I have the tongue palate and/or good quality roasted beans to notice or appreciate the additional flavor profiles between 64mm and 83mm based on forums/reviews. The Zerno Z1 is twice the price of a DF64V and the P64 is also more expensive. I prefer to put that money elsewhere.

Overall the key is to buy a grinder with burrs that can be easily be swapped with multiple aftermarket burrs so that you can try different flavor profiles.

Next question is if it's worth waiting for DF64V gen 2, added plasma?

Thank you all for your feedback.