Need help choosing a machine (espresso only) - Page 2

#11: Post by **jgood** » May 4th, 2023, 11:10 am

I have had a QuickMill Carola (which is an E61 Espresso only machine) for 6 years and it's been very good. A while ago I added the Coffee Sensor flow control to it. I would certainly put it on your list to consider. In terms of warmup time, add a small plug in timer between the outlet and the machine, and it'll cease to be an issue, as the machine will be ready when you wake up. I think I paid 10 or 20 dollars for the one I use. I also have a Cafelat Robot which is also an excellent choice, particularly if you like med dark to dark roast, as I do -- but it's totally manual so you may not want to consider it. It's simple and makes good espresso. Allow a good portion of you budget for the grinder - I have a Niche which is a solid, reasonably priced option, and should be on your short list. Lots of threads on it.

May 4th, 2023, 11:55 am

Jeff wrote:For roasters, keep an eye on Luca's posts here and elsewhere. I find that he's got tastes that I appreciate and the integrity to be honest about what he comments on. Great roasters are hard to find and change with time. I end up ordering a lot of my coffee from Europe, Japan, and Singapore. Since lighter roasts seem to benefit from 3-4 weeks or more of rest time, especially for espresso, the shipping time isn't a problem for me.

Thanks for this info, I have been trying different beans from a few different places and freezing them is working for me. I have an Aero Press and a cheap hand grinder I've ruined (which is another story) and I've had some fun but the hand grinding, set up, chemistry palaver that the Aero Press is never fits into my day to day, it's a weekend toy tbh.

Jeff wrote: Here's some thoughts on some combos that might be worth considering, especially as you mentioned "fast warmup time". An E61 box typically needs 20-45 minutes of warmup time, so I'll skip those for now.

I know you said "no levers", but I find them intuitive and repeatable. It's just a different kind of experience than having a computer drive things. An old-school manual, domestic lever makes shot after shot of tasty espresso with little effort. A spring lever is probably as repeatable as any computer-driven machine, just with a much simpler control system!

Edit: Re-reading, "lever" might have referred to a paddle on a valve. My apologies if I misinterpreted.

The ECM Puristika lists heating times around ten mins and I'm reading the Flair 58 is about 3 to 10 mins depending on how hot you want. I'm beginning to come to grips with the need to either wait ten minutes or get a lever machine and a fast kettle.
You were correct on your edit, I was referring to manual paddles for controlling a flow valve as levers, not levers as in "lever" machines. Though, that being said, a lever machine is a manual flow control paddle from what I can see... you're just driving the pump manually instead of restricting it manually. I'm curious to know how intuitive it is and how repeatable it is but I'm not excited by them to be honest. I like the idea of metaphorically lighting a big fire and working out how far away to stand so my steak BBQ's perfectly rather than gently milking something up close and personal.

Jeff wrote:
Budget Choice:
Flair 58 and Option-O Mini (Moonshine) -- Grinder upgrades include Option-O P64 or P100

Basic manual lever machine with a heater to help with coffees that benefit from higher extraction temperatures. The Robot does a very good job, but can be more challenging if you want to go with higher temperatures. The Mini will grind a cup or two of medium-light or light-roast beans without complaining too much. Tim Wendelboe, Coffee Collective, Manhattan, Apollon's Gold or the like should be OK. I haven't tried ultra-lights such as Mood Trap ("Prady"). I didn't like the workflow on the DF64 and haven't followed its replacements too closely. I find the Option-O P64 to be a great grinder to work with. The P100 is a step up from that, though I don't know pricing for you once shipping and duties are involved.

Still-Risky Choice:
Odyssey Argos and Option-O P64

A promising lever with advanced temperature management. It can be converted as either manual or spring. Though I have confidence that it will ship and that orders will open up again, it has not shipped yet. I have had one on order. Many of us hope that it will be an exceptionally good espresso machine. There is always the possibility that it will be an "also ran".

Boring Choice:
Breville Dual Boiler and Option-O P64

Quick heat-up time, very good temperature management. Works well even without mods. The simple mods add flow management that many find valuable. Seems to have a different maintenance routine that many classic machines. Not visually exciting, but makes a great cup of espresso.

If speed is only occasionally a need and you're drawn to E61 boxes, then you might want to consider a pour-over setup to complement it. That's what I use when I've only got 10 minutes before the next meeting and want a coffee now, even with a machine with a four-minute warm-up time.

I definitely have my eye on the P64, the P100 is beyond what I can convince the other half I need/can afford to want...

Thank you for your considered reply, I really appreciate the help and I've been doing lots of read from what you've mentioned. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Tim

May 4th, 2023, 12:03 pm

luvmy40 wrote:I don't really have a recommendation of a machine for you. I would, however suggest NOT going with a BDB at this point. As much as I love my BDB it has, evidently been discontinued completely by Breville. Rumor has it they are going to be pushing the Oracle series as their flag ship from here on out, which I think is terrible mistake. So, unless you can find a remarkable deal on NIB BDB, I'd wait it out with Breville.

I'm seeing this written on the walls around the place. It bothers me I'm paying for a grinder which was rather sh**ty in build quality and a whole second boiler I don't want. I have used one though and it was fun and tasty...

May 4th, 2023, 12:17 pm

Milligan wrote:I think decent rolls customs fees into their shipping quote. They likely have a sweetheart deal with the US as I paid $250 for shipping to the US recently for a Decent. Ordered Monday and it was here Wednesday. Fastest overseas shipping I've ever had and no duty owed. I'm guessing Australia has a higher duty on the unit, hence the high shipping.

I'm far too early in my ownership to give any solid advice on the Decent but it is a feature rich machine with a lot of options. I like how it can "emulate" many different espresso machines and the tea portafilter is a home run so far.

The Micra is really hard to compare to the Decent. It has the flat profile with zero flow control.

If you want a playground then the Decent is a good option. If you want an analog playground then a Bianca V3 is great. Coming from a GS3, I wanted a playground hence the Decent. Don't be afraid to make the wrong choice. The used market is strong for machines if you want to dabble over the years to see what fits you the best.

I want the Decent... I really do. I want to download someone else's profile and have a taste, I really do. I just don't want it for 10k...
I also fear getting stuck in the forums doing more reading and programming and less paid work. That being said, I'm jelly you have one and I hope you get bulk enjoyment from it.

May 4th, 2023, 12:23 pm

erik82 wrote:Have a look at the Strietman CT2. Almost no maintenance costs/time and can produce shots of the same quality a 10K machine can. For espresso only and minimal fuzz it won't get any better.

I know it's manual and not a E-61 HX or DB 58mm machine but I've had lots of those over the last 15 years and nothing comes even close to what the Strietman delivers.

John49 wrote: I agree with Erik, not sure what the fascination with 58mm is. For espresso only you could not beat the Strietman.

It is $5k AUD and it only does espresso so it fits my stated requirements, it also looks like I'd spend more time polishing it than making coffee... what makes this so special? Build quality and thermal repeatability?

I kind of want a 58mm filter because I'm of the belief (purely based on thinking about it from a dissolution of a solid in a stream of liquid - physics point of view) that the taller/narrower the column of solid the more saturated the liquid is when it get's to the bottom giving a greater saturation differential top to bottom. Also a greater temperature differential top to bottom... gut feeling though, zero experience or testing to back that claim up or that the effects would effect taste.

May 4th, 2023, 12:31 pm

jgood wrote:I have had a QuickMill Carola (which is an E61 Espresso only machine) for 6 years and it's been very good. A while ago I added the Coffee Sensor flow control to it. I would certainly put it on your list to consider. In terms of warmup time, add a small plug in timer between the outlet and the machine, and it'll cease to be an issue, as the machine will be ready when you wake up. I think I paid 10 or 20 dollars for the one I use. I also have a Cafelat Robot which is also an excellent choice, particularly if you like med dark to dark roast, as I do -- but it's totally manual so you may not want to consider it. It's simple and makes good espresso. Allow a good portion of you budget for the grinder - I have a Niche which is a solid, reasonably priced option, and should be on your short list. Lots of threads on it.

Thanks for this suggestion. The QuickMill Carola looks like the ECM Puristika and both can have flow control added. I think that's where I'm going to have to decide which ones for me. Is there a machine which has a programmable flow controller on a servo?

#17: Post by **Jeff** » May 4th, 2023, 2:45 pm

There are lots of marketing claims made about E61 heat-up times. Sure, you can pull a shot as soon as the boiler is up to temperature. With 4 kg of brass hanging out in the breeze, intentionally spilling heat, warmed only by a trickle of water through the thermosiphon, that isn't going to be up to temperature for a long time. Classic Italian espresso blends survive just about anything. Modern roasts, especially light roasts, are a lot less forgiving. If you're willing to wrap the group head in a towel, you might get down to 20 minutes. Otherwise plan on 30-45 minutes.

#18: Post by **jgood** » May 4th, 2023, 10:36 pm

The ECM is a newer design which has some form of external control of the OPV that lets one adjust brew pressure -- not sure if this has the same net effect as the "flow control" (by different means) or not. I mean I don't know if you can use this to reduce pressure during the shot like flow control. Perhaps someone with a Purista can weigh in. The other differences with the Carola are external water tank and SS boiler (on the ECM)-- the QuickMill has a coated copper boiler and internal tank. The costs are similar assuming you add the flow control to the QM and don't on the ECM -- otherwise the QM is less expensive, at least here in America. I think flow control on a servo gets into the Decent territory. That said the E61 (with the stock spring) does ramp up to pressure. I kept the stock spring when I added the flow control so I let the E61 ramp up the pressure, then I manually reduce it towards to latter part of the shot.

#19: Post by **erik82** » May 5th, 2023, 1:59 am

Tim M wrote:It is $5k AUD and it only does espresso so it fits my stated requirements, it also looks like I'd spend more time polishing it than making coffee... what makes this so special? Build quality and thermal repeatability?

I haven't polshed it in months and it still looks good (though it need a good polish

). It needs far less polishing then you'd think and descaling takes you only 10minutes for a full descale instead of half a day for and E61. In terms of total time spend on cleaning it's less then a E61 as those big chrome bombs also get dirty and need a lot of cleaning. You'll see everythng on chrome, even more then on brass and copper. But because of the modest size even cleaning doesn't take long. The Strietman has a saturated group due to the open boiler design with superb temperature stability. Build quality is also great and it'll last a very long time with minimal fuss. It's also super easy to pull great shots with.

Tim M wrote:I kind of want a 58mm filter because I'm of the belief (purely based on thinking about it from a dissolution of a solid in a stream of liquid - physics point of view) that the taller/narrower the column of solid the more saturated the liquid is when it get's to the bottom giving a greater saturation differential top to bottom. Also a greater temperature differential top to bottom... gut feeling though, zero experience or testing to back that claim up or that the effects would effect taste.

There's information about this and you're partially right as it also works the other way around. That's also the reason why I don't use the 18gr basket in the Strietman as it's way too tall for how wide it is and it really affects extraction. So for a 49mm basket you can go up to 16gr without any problems. With a 58mm filterbasket you can go much higher but still I never liked shots over 18gr in dose. Some brands like Dalla Corta use 54mm because it also works the other way around and they state that 58mm is too wide and the basket too shallow for a good extraction for a 16gr dose. So as long as you use the right filterbaskets and dose you'll be fine.

#20: Post by **erik82** » May 5th, 2023, 2:14 am

jgood wrote:The ECM is a newer design which has some form of external control of the OPV that lets one adjust brew pressure -- not sure if this has the same net effect as the "flow control" (by different means) or not. I mean I don't know if you can use this to reduce pressure during the shot like flow control.

No it isn't. You can set the brew pressure but it's not meant to do this all the time and especially not during shots. An OPV isn't made to handle that. And you won't be changing this parameter a lot. Every other E61 can also do this but you need to remove a part of the housing and use a screwdriver. Most here just set it from 11 bar to 8-9 bar and you're good.

Tim M wrote:Thanks for this suggestion. The QuickMill Carola looks like the ECM Puristika and both can have flow control added. I think that's where I'm going to have to decide which ones for me. Is there a machine which has a programmable flow controller on a servo?

This assumption is right but has it's flaws. The Bianca does it and you can retrofit it on another E61 but it's a far from perfect solution. It's still a very oldschool design with it's flaws that can be upgraded but not always for the better in comparison to newer technique like a Decent which is then a far better option. I nearly sold my Strietman a couple of years ago to buy a Lelit Bianca but after playing with it for a full day with my own grinder and beans I came to the conclusion that it couldn't even come close to what I could do on the Strietman and shot quality was far less.

Keep in mind that with a manual lever you can do every pressure/flow profile you can think of as you're the one pulling on the lever and deciding what it should do. Once you have a bit of experience with them it's incredibly easy.