mhlwong wrote:Thanks Ron,
How would you compare with Quick Mill QM67 and Rocket Appartamento?

I have heard that the steam pressure is weak on the Quick Mill QM67. I do not know the Rocket Appartamento.

Hello,
I have a Rocket Appartamento since April 2018. I am delighted. Extraction quality, powerful steam, heated in 20 minutes (I then pass a little hot water in the filter holder, ...). I do not miss the PID because I think the original setting is fine. In addition, I do not appreciate the roasting clear (besides my feeling is that the group E61 is not made for these roasting, although obviously it is not prohibited). However, I always make sure that the cup is hot before pouring coffee. Sometimes I play a little preinfusion, but the lever is certainly not planned for that. In short, not too much electronics and I think that for a machine with heat exchanger, E61, it is more than enough. Some people may need a double boiler, perhaps, or a rotary pump (although the Appartamento is not very noisy for a vibrating pump). If I had to put money in a more sophisticated machine (and obviously the mill, I just ordered the Niche), it would not be in a group E61. What I mean is that for an E61, the Appartamento is Top. And that soon I will come perhaps to put next to the Appartamento another machine (group Rossi or machine with lever, or LMLM but there it becomes expensive ...) to discover other sides of the coffee.

I had a 500PID HX (Profitec) for about 7 months. It has a newer thermosyphon design and its rebound is slow. So while older HX designs require flushes and will allow you to pull shots 2 min apart, mine requires about 5-10 minutes between shots to fully recover. (This may be a unique characteristic of my particular machine). I can pull 2-3 back to back shots and they are all pretty good.. the first a little hot.. the second seems perfect, the 3rd a little cool.. all within about 10 minutes.. but then I need to wait about 15 minutes before I can pull a 4th shot.

Knowing what I know now, I would not buy an HX design without also buying the external group thermometer that will tell me when the machine rebounds enough to pull successive shots. An external thermometer can also help DB machines, but it is really the only way to nail down your flushing technique on HX designs and let you know where your brew water temp is.

You can do 'trial & error', but that is a pretty long process. Having a SCACE really helps if you know someone who has one and you can borrow while you learn the thermal characteristics of your machine.

Thanks all!

I am really surprised by the replies... Probably both Appartamento and Profitec 500 are suffered from the unknown brewing temperature due to the HX design, particularly when pulling the second shot (First shot could be more or less consistent by using cooling flush?). And the only solution is probably Eric's thermometer.

Actually, what I am thinking is that there is lack of insulating stainless steel boiler and PID in Appartamento and I believe that I will be with the espresso machine for many years.... I have no experience in E61 machines, comments on the importance of these two features would be much welcomed.

I am now also thinking of cheap dual boiler machines. Apart from Quick mill QM67 and Expobar, is there any cheap DB available too?

Considering you are drinking lattes, don't be too concerned about whether you will be nailing the brew temperature exactly on each shot. I think you can go about a cooling flush fairly intuitively as demonstrated in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVrdQ5s0pNY

If your temperature is a little off (which you will be blissfully unaware of without a thermometer), I wonder if you will notice it in a latte. If you want to hone in on flushing technique because you want to be able to dial in your shot more accurately, you can always order the thermometer as an accessory.

I have a Rocket HX with PID, which is essentially a more sophisticated version of the appartamento. I like it. Despite the slow rebound in grouphead temp, I don't seem to have any problems brewing at the right temp. I seldom make more than 3 shots in a row, so I haven't tested its abilities beyond that.

I have added the grouphead thermometer, which I think helps knowing what's going on.

I recently purchased a Mechanika V Slim and love it so far. My second choice was the Profitec 500 with PID, but I have a very small NYC kitchen and the slightly smaller package made a difference for me.

The ECM has a bigger boiler and nicer build quality than the Rocket Appartamento, which I believe was the leader in this category prior to the release of the ECM. It's also narrower, which, as I mentioned, is important to me.

If you like larger milk drinks, I wouldn't consider a dual boiler in this price range. (I originally looked into these too.) The size of the boilers is just too small to produce enough steam.

I'm not sure what the water is like in Hong Kong now, but dual boilers are more likely to build up scale. And by definition, an HX machine is simpler with fewer parts, which should be easier to maintain. I think that might be an important consideration for you.

Bluenoser wrote:I had a 500PID HX (Profitec) for about 7 months. It has a newer thermosyphon design and its rebound is slow. So while older HX designs require flushes and will allow you to pull shots 2 min apart, mine requires about 5-10 minutes between shots to fully recover. (This may be a unique characteristic of my particular machine). I can pull 2-3 back to back shots and they are all pretty good.. the first a little hot.. the second seems perfect, the 3rd a little cool.. all within about 10 minutes.. but then I need to wait about 15 minutes before I can pull a 4th shot.

Knowing what I know now, I would not buy an HX design without also buying the external group thermometer that will tell me when the machine rebounds enough to pull successive shots. An external thermometer can also help DB machines, but it is really the only way to nail down your flushing technique on HX designs and let you know where your brew water temp is.

Reading Bluenoser's post makes me wonder if having a PID on an HX is all it's cracked up to be. Here's why: I have my Profitec Pro 500 (non-PID) boiler pressure bumped up a bit on the high side so that I can recover quickly and have plenty of steam. Through flushing, I can still control brew temperature, pulling shots a little cool or hot depending on the beans. While I can't be certain exactly what the temperature is, like you can on the better PID dual boilers, I have developed a fairly consistent process, so I think I have a pretty good sense of where the temperature is and, regardless, I'm very happy with the results.

Back to Bluenoser's post, I was thinking that he should just bump up the boiler temp/pressure, but then I realized that the 500 PID is configured to have a fairly linear relationship between the PID/boiler temp and the brew temp. If he bumps up the PID/boiler temp, he'll just scorch his shot. Given that flushing is unlikely to have the same effect on it than my non-PID machine, it probably wouldn't help much either. (Or, am I wrong here?)

Long story short, I always assumed that I would take a PID HX over a pressurestat HX, but this light bulb just went off in my head as I realize that a non-PID HX is probably the more flexible machine. While flushing the non-PID is a mild annoyance, it does allow you to change things on the fly. I recall a number of posts from HB elders stating as much, but I never really understood what they were saying until now. Given all that, and assuming I haven't misunderstood the functioning of the PID HX machines, I don't think I would trade my non-PID 500 for a PID version, which would steer me towards the ECM in your case.

Either way, I agree that you definitely need Eric's thermometer to get a feel for what's going on inside an HX machine, PID or no PID.

Yes.. I am on the same page as you..

I am guessing that besides the PID, Profitec used a smaller opening on the restrictor of the thermosiphon (TS). The goal was to control the boiler more precisely (with the PID) and then slow down the TS a bit to give more constant and consistent temp. (I don't think this design is unique to Profitec as I read similar experiences on at least one other HX PID design)

Problem with this approach (and I'm guessing here), is that the restriction prevents the TS loop from developing enough hot water to pull shots every 2 seconds. It is really slow between shots 3-4 on my machine.

Also, it may be that designing such a delicate loop is not possible as likely very minute changes in opening, pipe volume, etc causes a significant difference in performance.

The plus is that I don't waste a lot of water on flushes and so it is convenient using bottled water. Eric's thermometer is an absolute must and I am slightly annoyed at Profitec, or any manufacturer that won't put a temp sensor in the screen area so users can effectively use their machine. There is absolutely NO way to know when a machine rebounds without a thermometer unless it is an older design and it is guaranteed to rebound in 2 minutes.. but then the thermometer is required to develop a flush routine

I'd love to hear from other Pro 500 PID owners that have Eric's thermometer to see if their specific machines operate better than mine for rebound. Every shot, my IDLE temp seems to go down about 4 degrees.. And it takes about 5 minutes(or more) to recover fully according to my thermometer.

I'm not unhappy with my Pro500 PID. Now that I have a thermometer and know how it works, I can develop a workflow that gives me everything I want. I think I can get very good extractions.. and the machine operates wonderfully. But my next machine (which hopefully will be a few years down the road) won't be an HX of any type; and will have better sensor technology.