LObin wrote:Londinium Compressa?
Have you followed the evolution of the Odyssey OE-1?
It could be an option to consider once the first reviews are in.

With the Compressa, I am unsure. I might be moving places every second year or so for the next 10 years. I don't know if it will always be possible to connect the machine. The Odyssey OE-1 is super new for me. Thanks a lot for mentioning it. But I am unsure if it will be really the right machine. It looks a bit too small for doing either some back to back shots or some 1:3 ratio shots.

Ad-85 wrote:Vostok has no tank. Vesuvius EVO Leva has a tank and built on the same Vesuvius chassis. Still on pre-production phase but I'm glad I got on the waiting list.

Thanks a lot. I hope I'll be reading from you as soon as you get it . But it is kinda weird that whenever I search it, I only find the one without the lever(Besides youtube videos).

GorchT wrote:Thanks a lot. I hope I'll be reading from you as soon as you get it . But it is kinda weird that whenever I search it, I only find the one without the lever(Besides youtube videos).

https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3
Page 14

Thank you, the whole magazine is super useful

LObin wrote:https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3
Page 14

It was LObin who brought ACS's machine to my attention and I can't thank him enough!

How many people get to truly use and compare all of these machines? Hard to say.

In my searching, I concluded that a PID-controlled dual-boiler machine in the classic Italian prosumer design was my baseline. Some feel that the temperature variance of a less-expensive HX machine actually improves flavor... but I can't say.

You're correct that nearly any E61 machine can be upgraded to flow control. I have a Bezzera with E61, and I might upgrade in a year. I know that kits are available. But I still have reservations about flow control. Espresso making is a very traditional thing. The E61 group head dates to 1961!!! Is flow control going to be around in five or ten years? I don't know.

I first made espresso at home in 1996, but with my new Bezzera, I still think it will be six months to a year before I feel that I've peaked with the machine's abilities, and only then will I consider adding flow control.

You're going to get this new machine, and the espresso won't taste as good as your old setup. It might take you a month. I tried dialing in all in a Saturday, and I got buzzed too hard, even though I only took a sip of each shot, etc. So now I just keep a notebook of each morning's adventure. At that rate, it'll take you a month or two to settle in, I think. And then, maybe you'll be happy or maybe you'll want to add the variables of flow control.

So which machine should you buy? I would say any dual-boiler with an E61. I bought the Bezzera Duo MN, and 100% love it. My friends just bought the ECM Synchronika, and they love it. They are comparable, as is Rocket and a bunch of others. I like the screen on the Bezzera and its "Dal 1901" Italian heritage. And I have zero complaints. The touchscreen is very basic and well-organized. You can adjust and view temps, see the pressure, it's a shot timer, you can adjust the timer schedule, run cleaning... it is very useful but not overbearing at all. Rocket kind of has the same thing, for about $600-$700 more. I think the Bezzera is a few hundred less than it's comparable competition for some reason.

But my friends love their ECM, too. There are a lot of dual-boilers at this price point, like Crem, Profitec, Rocket, ECM, Lelit... if it's in your budget, I would say get the one that touches your heart. Because they're all going to give the same result, really. Rotary pump, plumbable/tanked, PID control, big boilers, fast milk steaming... I've yet to hear anyone say something like "Profitec espresso tastes better than Rocket."

At a certain point, it becomes like buying a car. The spreadsheet will always tell you they Hyundai is the best value, but your heart wants the BMW. Although, in this case, at the dual-boiler, rotary pump E61 level, they are going to be much more comparable in features and price to one another, so let your heart choose and don't regret.

Here's what I conclude about Lelit, Bezzera and ECM:

Lelit Bianca: Includes flow control, and the movable/removable water tank is a huge plus for counter space, especially if you plumb the machine. It's tiny control screen is useful but looks difficult to use.

Bezzera Duo MN: Less expensive, the touch screen makes settings a breeze, but it's controversial to those who prefer analog gauges.

ECM Synchronika: Best repairability. My friends say it's like a Leica; very precise fit and finish. Very traditional analog gauges. Costs as much as the Lelit but no flow control.

I've seen all three at Clive. They're all beautiful and identical in most respects. The ECM does seem slightly more solid but these things are all tanks. They will all delight you.

Clive also had Profitec machines on display. Profitec manufactures ECM machines, so I'm sure their machines are good; they must be. Unfortunately for Profitec, they don't have the German precision of ECM, the touchscreen and pedigree of Bezzera, or the flow control, wood knobs and movable water tank of the Lelit. There's no reason not to ask them to the prom, except they're sitting right next to these three cheerleaders. My eyes skipped right past them every time I've been in that shop.

PeetsFan wrote:How many people get to truly use and compare all of these machines? Hard to say.

In my searching, I concluded that a PID-controlled dual-boiler machine in the classic Italian prosumer design was my baseline. Some feel that the temperature variance of a less-expensive HX machine actually improves flavor... but I can't say.

You're correct that nearly any E61 machine can be upgraded to flow control. I have a Bezzera with E61, and I might upgrade in a year. I know that kits are available. But I still have reservations about flow control. Espresso making is a very traditional thing. The E61 group head dates to 1961!!! Is flow control going to be around in five or ten years? I don't know.

I first made espresso at home in 1996, but with my new Bezzera, I still think it will be six months to a year before I feel that I've peaked with the machine's abilities, and only then will I consider adding flow control.

You're going to get this new machine, and the espresso won't taste as good as your old setup. It might take you a month. I tried dialing in all in a Saturday, and I got buzzed too hard, even though I only took a sip of each shot, etc. So now I just keep a notebook of each morning's adventure. At that rate, it'll take you a month or two to settle in, I think. And then, maybe you'll be happy or maybe you'll want to add the variables of flow control.

So which machine should you buy? I would say any dual-boiler with an E61. I bought the Bezzera Duo MN, and 100% love it. My friends just bought the ECM Synchronika, and they love it. They are comparable, as is Rocket and a bunch of others. I like the screen on the Bezzera and its "Dal 1901" Italian heritage. And I have zero complaints. The touchscreen is very basic and well-organized. You can adjust and view temps, see the pressure, it's a shot timer, you can adjust the timer schedule, run cleaning... it is very useful but not overbearing at all. Rocket kind of has the same thing, for about $600-$700 more. I think the Bezzera is a few hundred less than it's comparable competition for some reason.

But my friends love their ECM, too. There are a lot of dual-boilers at this price point, like Crem, Profitec, Rocket, ECM, Lelit... if it's in your budget, I would say get the one that touches your heart. Because they're all going to give the same result, really. Rotary pump, plumbable/tanked, PID control, big boilers, fast milk steaming... I've yet to hear anyone say something like "Profitec espresso tastes better than Rocket."

At a certain point, it becomes like buying a car. The spreadsheet will always tell you they Hyundai is the best value, but your heart wants the BMW. Although, in this case, at the dual-boiler, rotary pump E61 level, they are going to be much more comparable in features and price to one another, so let your heart choose and don't regret.

Hey,
Thanks really for your input. Currently, I am experimenting with a constant decreasing pressure in the Flair over the whole extraction. After quite a long PI of around 15-25s. Which, for me, seems to work the best with the lighter roasts that I like. Therefore, I am afraid that the E61 without the paddle is not giving me the desired sweetness in my espresso. And my Toyota Aygo is still great and the dream upgrade would be a Lotus Elise (which is a car without any unnecessary stuff).
I guess in 10 years, I will be at a totally different Espresso point in my life, either the "total control" approach of the decent or the "I want my indestructible tank"-E61 machine or somewhere in between.

Here you go:
$262 gets you the Lelit Bianca paddle and complete kit so you can upgrade an E61 to flow control:
https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-grou ... -grouphead

If you're certain you want flow control, may as well buy it stock from Lelit. Pretty sure that anything else with stock flow control costs much more.

OTOH, Lotus Elise ends production this year. Maybe put the money down on the Lotus while you still can.

Haha Thanks but momentarily I don't need a car at all and I am more looking forward to book one every now and then on the weekend. Also Thank you for the recommendation of the paddle, but yes at the moment the Bianca would be the machine of choice if it isn't going to be a lever machine.

Wow this thread became popular very fast lol.

If you don't need to steam milk, why focus so much on those big and heavy machines with a large steam boiler? It seems to me Flair 58 is tailor-made for your needs mentioned in the OP. Xris on YT has videos on Flair 58 workflows. Quite nice IMO.

If you want a pump machine, a single boiler with PID may be worth considering. Doesn't cost thousands yet you still get consistent shots. On some (many?) machines like Lelit Anna PID and Victoria, you can even pressure profile using the steam knob while pulling a shot.