La Spaziale Vivaldi II vs. Vibiemme Double Domo PID - Page 4

Recommendations for espresso equipment buyers and upgraders.
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nixter

#31: Post by nixter » Jan 13, 2010, 2:46 pm

Someone like CafeIke can probably confirm this but unless your "between shot time" is minuscule then I'd say you're probably fine.

I too prefer the aesthetics of the DD. I think it's beautiful in fact! I don't feel the same way about the Mini Viv II but I'm leaning towards it for it's technical prowess, smaller footprint, and reservoir location. Like the song says.. "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life..."

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uscfroadie

#32: Post by uscfroadie » Jan 14, 2010, 1:29 am

mshimao wrote:I have one lingering concern about the DD. The DD's brew boiler is 1.4L and it has a 600 watt heating element. I will frequently want to pull 5 2oz doubles in a row. Will the DD be able to keep up? If the answer is yes, then I will let my mind rest.
FIVE doubles in a row, meaning you plan on making FIVE drinks at a time in your HOUSE? I'm guessing not, unless you have five coffee drinkers in your house, but want to ask.

What is your current setup? I ask because you will be limited by the speed of your grinder. If using something like a Mini, I highly doubt you'll outpace your machine as you'll have a minute or more in-between pulling shots, which is sufficient time for the machine to recover. You'll need almost that to dump the puck, clean the portafilter, grind for the shot, distribute, and tamp.
Merle

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cafeIKE

#33: Post by cafeIKE » Jan 14, 2010, 1:59 am

mshimao wrote: ...almost. I have one lingering concern about the DD. The DD's brew boiler is 1.4L and it has a 600 watt heating element. I will frequently want to pull 5 2oz doubles in a row. Will the DD be able to keep up? If the answer is yes, then I will let my mind rest.
The larger the boiler, the longer it takes to heat initially and it cools more slowly. A larger boiler has more volume / per surface area [ D cubed vs D squared ] so a larger boiler loses heat slower relative to the volume of water.

It takes about 9000 calories to heat 120ml [50ml shot + 70ml waste] from 30°C to 105°C. A 600 watt element supplies that much heat in about 60 seconds. Adding a 50% fudge factor for various losses and inefficiencies, a 600w heater still reheats the water in 2 minutes or less.

With the DoubleDomo, the first shot is about 1°F hot relative to 2nd pulled at a short interval. Either use it in a milk drink or flush for about 5 seconds before pulling a straight shot. The 2nd shot is about 1°F hot relative to the 3rd and follow-ons. From 3rd on, the temperature is very well controlled. IIRC, shots 3-7 had less than ½°F variation shot to shot on the Scace. If memory serves, shots 3 to 7 were pulled in about 10 minutes.

mshimao

#34: Post by mshimao » Jan 14, 2010, 2:31 am

Thank you, I'm feeling better about deciding on the VBM Double Domobar Electronic.

My current machine is a PIDed Alexia. No problem with the espresso, but I got careless filling the machine and spilled some water on the internals and the PID no longer works properly. Good excuse to upgrade.

My grinder is a Mini Mazzer doserless.

My normal usage pattern will be 3 shots in a row -- one for my wife's latte and 2 for my capp. But when we have friends over, 5 in a row is common.

I appreciate the help, and hope I didn't get nixter's thread too far OT.

mshimao

#35: Post by mshimao » Jan 14, 2010, 5:55 am

nixter wrote:I too prefer the aesthetics of the DD. I think it's beautiful in fact! I don't feel the same way about the Mini Viv II but I'm leaning towards it for it's technical prowess, smaller footprint, and reservoir location.
Hi Nixter,

It is funny how the little things can matter....the reservoir of the Mini Vivaldi II is one of the things I prefer as well. Much better ergonomics in my opinion, compared to the VBM and all other non-plummed E-61s.

mshimao

#36: Post by mshimao » Jan 14, 2010, 6:05 am

cafeIKE wrote:It takes about 9000 calories to heat 120ml [50ml shot + 70ml waste] from 30°C to 105°C. A 600 watt element supplies that much heat in about 60 seconds. Adding a 50% fudge factor for various losses and inefficiencies, a 600w heater still reheats the water in 2 minutes or less.
This is interesting. I thought about it, and I hope I am not jumping to conclusions inappropriately.

The above makes me think that the Double Domobar will perform better than the Junior. My takeaway from Ian's post is that the 600 watts is what matters -- the energy used to heat the water. Therefore, the rebound for the Junior (which has a smaller boiler) won't necessarily be better. Rather, the rebound is theoretically about the same, but the Double Domobar will have better stability.

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JmanEspresso

#37: Post by JmanEspresso » Jan 14, 2010, 6:40 am

When I was deciding which Dual Boiler to go with, both the Brewtus and VBM left the list early on.

The Brewtus left my list for 3 reasons. 1) I PERSONALLY have not had good experiences with WLL in the past. 2) slow steamer. 3) The brew boiler/heating element makes no sense to me.

(Please dont let this turn into a thread about why WLL is a great company. IF you're thrilled with their service, Awesome.)

The Vibiemme, is probably one the nicest looking E-61's. But, one thing I didn't like about the DD, was the PID showed actual boiler temp.. There is no offset so you can see what you're brewing at. FOR ME, this is not what I wanted. Also, the brew boiler/heating element issue again.


The two machines I was stuck on, were the Izzo Duetto II, and the Vivaldi II. I thought those two had the best features.
-The Duetto has a Rotary Pump, but doesn't have to be plumbed. Good for moving the machine around. It's 100% PID controlled, no pressurestat. The drip tray and be drained. It has a large steam boiler, and small brew boiler/high powered element.

-For the Vivaldi.. It was easy. Its been out forever, and many, many satisfied owners. There have been very few large issue's with the machine, outside of normal maintenance, and "growing pains" of a new machine. It's a Rotary/Plumbed machine, and the drip tray can be drained. It's known for having massive steam power, and the Brew Boiler is tiny, with a large heating element. You can buy it as a 20amp, and use it on 15 until you're set up for 20amp(meaning, it's one model, not two).

The actual decision as to which one to get.. was tough. I went back and forth, daily, for months. A deal came up on a VII and I was in a position to buy. I knew it was a solid machine, and the deal was worth it. So I jumped on it. Now? Im 100% sure I made the right choice. Ive got zero complaints.

But, the main reason, why I was looking at these two machines? Simple. Chris sells them. He's 1hr from my home, which makes it easy to go up there when I need too. I like the way Chris runs his operation, and I like that he only sells machines that he thinks are the best out there. Ive personally dealt directly with Chris, and His Team many times, for both small and large purchases, and gotten nothing but the absolute best service I have ever gotten, from any company. That's the reason I stay loyal to Chris'.
Artisan Micro Roaster, Peekskill NY
www.BigBangCoffeeRoasters.com

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cafeIKE

#38: Post by cafeIKE » Jan 14, 2010, 1:00 pm

JmanEspresso wrote:The Vibiemme, is probably one the nicest looking E-61's. But, one thing I didn't like about the DD, was the PID showed actual boiler temp.. There is no offset so you can see what you're brewing at.
As stated elsewhere, on an e61, if you're not using Eric's adapter, you're working harder than necessary. A couple of weeks ago the weather here in SoCal was quite warm, so per JonR10's request, I documented the group idle temp with Eric's 0.1°F thermometer. No windows open and no heating to stir the air. Machine was on 24/7 for 3 day period.
 Air               Group Idle
63°                 192.7°
66°                 193.3°
72°                 194.5°
A PID displaying boiler w offset would have a brew temp error of ~2°F over the course of a day. Using Eric's adapter allows spot on brew temp adjustment regardless of ambient conditions.

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nixter

#39: Post by nixter » Jun 03, 2010, 10:00 pm

I hope to be finally pulling the trigger this week. Except now I'm leaning towards an HX e61 with Erics's adapter+thermometer. I'm looking at the new Rocket Giotto Evoluzione. Rotary pump, tank and plump, external pump pressure adjust, dual gauges, no burn wand and spout. All this for about $500 less than the Spaz or DD. It's sold locally about 5 minutes from my house too!

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dirtbikejunkie

#40: Post by dirtbikejunkie » Jun 24, 2010, 4:50 pm

I've been contemplating the VII vx. DII for a while now. I've been set on a dual boiler, PID, and prefer E-61.

My local store stocks the DII and Rocket line and claim they like the Evoluzione over the DII and say it's their "go to" machine when they want a good espresso, I think mainly because they prefer HX over DB. I also find the Evoluzione an absolutely beautiful machine and slightly less $$.

I currently use a olympia cremina, which I can make great espresso with but lack consistency and prefer a machine that I know I can get a great espresso 90% time. The cremina has character, and character I think is part of what attracts me to the Evoluzione. I've had a hard time giving the VII the weight it deserves due to it's lack of character (IMO).

So now I am confused... I feel like I am deciding between function and form?