*Please note I posted a similar question on CG- I fine tuned the question and looking for a few more responses-thanks


Hello,

I've been a lurker here for a while, but am a new poster.

I work many nights and drink (guzzle) a lot of drip. I look at my TV drip coffee as a pleasant necessity, I look at my Espresso and Caps as an enjoyable delicacy.

I'm upgrading my KA Proline espresso machine, and having a bit of trouble making a final decision on a new machine. I am leaning toward a dual boiler, probably a La Spaziale Vivaldi II. I also considered a Expobar Brewtus, however after looking over the user forums between the two, it appears that there are much less problems with the Spaz (as matter fact, it's rare to find someone who has had problems with one). Reliability is one thing that's very attractive to me.

I also like the QuickMill HX Line, and if I went this way would go with a Vetrano . I perhaps even like the SS retro look a bit better than the Spaz, however I keep coming back to the convenience, flexibility and ease of making temperature adjustments, and the auto dosing of the Spaz would probably be useful if entertaining if I have a lot to crank out. I'm a very practical person.

As I see it at this point, it appears the Spaz has a lot going for it, except a better price tag, and sometimes I think it to be a bit overkill for home use.

What I'm really asking of you more experienced guys that own good HX machines, do you sometimes have a little upgrade fever for a dual boiler, or a machine with easy temp adjustments like the Spaz? Are there any downsides of the Spaz besides the cost? I'm not rich, but don't want to spend $1400 on a machine, only to wish a short time later I should have spent the extra 500 bucks to get the flexibility and convenience of the La Spaziale dual boiler.

One thing that concerns me a bit is; although the Spaz got great consumer reviews, although the review here on HB only gave it a score of 8 compared to a 9 for some other good HX machines in the "exceptional espresso" category, and I didn't quite get why. Also you guys don't seem to chat about it as much here, like the Tea's, QM's or some others.

I do make a lot of milk based drinks, and Yes, I like to "experiment" with adjusting things.

Input will be helpful to make a final decision. I have to be honest; the practical side of me says, 2000 bucks is a lot to make coffee.

I want to say thanks because I learned a great deal from HB.

Thanks Much in advance

I have a Vetrano ... I wish I had a dual boiler.

Amazing; sometime a few words can say pages worth. Thanks Matt

Anyone else?

I think the difficulty of managing brew temperature is frequently overstated. Or more accurately, beyond the beginner stage, there are far more formidable concerns like mastering dose/distribution and diagnosing taste defects that begin in the second month of ownership.

My theory is that the ease with which we can measure brew temperature and brew pressure attracts the engineering types who are inclined to obsess over quantifiable minutia. Many online discussions gloss over important and yet harder to quantify aspects in favor of those that can be neatly expressed in numbers and charts ("Your Honor, I am guilty as charged." ). The means and parameters by which we might quantify the quality of an extraction are only at their earliest stages in enthusiast online forums (e.g., Andy's brewing ratios and Jim's extraction analysis).

I commented that Eric's thermocouple adapter has reduced "the complexity of HX temperature management [to] a solution that a half-blind one-armed barista suffering from a mild case of AADD could not screw up." Even so, it's undeniably true that a double boiler simplifies and speeds brew temperature selection and I would not dissuade someone from choosing one. However, for my money, I put more weight on a consideration that cannot be solved with gadgets: The forgiveness factor. It's a measure I've struggled to express from the onset in the site's reviews, and yet it indirectly influences two rankings, the Buyer's Guides exceptional espresso and morning after scores. Unfortunately these are measures that come down to a personal assessment, and thus aren't scientific, but rather a shorthand way of ranking one's opinion of several candidates.

To put it more succinctly, I believe those who wring their hands over which espresso machine simplifies brew temperature management the best-- as embodied by the never ending dual boiler versus heat exchanger debate --are missing the larger point.

HB wrote:To put it more succinctly, I believe those who wring their hands over which espresso machine simplifies brew temperature management the best-- as embodied by the never ending dual boiler versus heat exchanger debate --are missing the larger point.

I agree with that. I am just honestly tired of running a small HX machine. I have developed several flush/rebound routines specific to desired brew temps, and manage them well for the most part. It took time with a rough start. What bumped the learning curve for me was getting a Scace / Fluke setup and developing an understanding of my machine's capabilites. I imagine the payoff is similar with Eric's TC adapter. What I don't like is when making a 4-6 cappuccinos, it takes time. I lose stability if my intershot time (defined as beginning of extraction to next beginning of extraction) is narrower than four minutes.

The machines that are currently popular right now for home use are based on very old technology that has been shrunk down, put in a shiny box, and labeled a "prosumer" machine. It's great marketing, not great engineering. Commercial HX's with huge boilers have learning curves for temp management, and they can be used with great consistent success. Home HX's - same thing, but smaller package = less thermal stability. What's unfortunate is that there is really no good dual boiler available right now that is competitive in price with the current HX's. What I don't like about the Vivaldi is PF size - personal preference. I don't like the Brewtus due to it's vibe pump and substandard thermal stability in terms of what's expected out of a DB (in my opinion).

I have said this in other posts but I'll repeat it so you (Nocturnal) know where I'm coming from. While I believe that the dual boiler machine concept is far superior to the HX concept, there are differences in engineering among the DBs themselves, and I question whether the temp stability of the current DB's mentioned is really that much better than an HX in the hands of an experienced user when comparing machines without any modifications.

Having said that, I don't see any pro reason to go with an HX machine over a DB outside a personal preference options and saving a few hundred dollars (which will hopefully change in the near future).

Matthew Brinski wrote:I don't like the Brewtus due to it's vibe pump and substandard thermal stability in terms of what's expected out of a DB (in my opinion).

Online discussions frequently use the term "thermal stability" ambiguously. Some posters mean a flat profile for a single extraction, others mean how well it tracks shot-to-shot. To which are you referring? From all accounts I've read and my own experience, the Brewtus is hard to beat:


From Buyer's Guide to the Expobar Brewtus, epilogue

Personally I would love to see it available with a rotary pump and a larger set of heating elements (20A).

Nocturnal wrote:*Please note I posted a similar question on CG- I fine tuned the question and looking for a few more responses-thanks


Hello,

I've been a lurker here for a while, but am a new poster.

I work many nights and drink (guzzle) a lot of drip. I look at my TV drip coffee as a pleasant necessity, I look at my Espresso and Caps as an enjoyable delicacy.

I'm upgrading my KA Proline espresso machine, and having a bit of trouble making a final decision on a new machine. I am leaning toward a dual boiler, probably a La Spaziale Vivaldi II. I also considered a Expobar Brewtus, however after looking over the user forums between the two, it appears that there are much less problems with the Spaz (as matter fact, it's rare to find someone who has had problems with one). Reliability is one thing that's very attractive to me.

I also like the QuickMill HX Line, and if I went this way would go with a Vetrano . I perhaps even like the SS retro look a bit better than the Spaz, however I keep coming back to the convenience, flexibility and ease of making temperature adjustments, and the auto dosing of the Spaz would probably be useful if entertaining if I have a lot to crank out. I'm a very practical person.

As I see it at this point, it appears the Spaz has a lot going for it, except a better price tag, and sometimes I think it to be a bit overkill for home use.

What I'm really asking of you more experienced guys that own good HX machines, do you sometimes have a little upgrade fever for a dual boiler, or a machine with easy temp adjustments like the Spaz? Are there any downsides of the Spaz besides the cost? I'm not rich, but don't want to spend $1400 on a machine, only to wish a short time later I should have spent the extra 500 bucks to get the flexibility and convenience of the La Spaziale dual boiler.

One thing that concerns me a bit is; although the Spaz got great consumer reviews, although the review here on HB only gave it a score of 8 compared to a 9 for some other good HX machines in the "exceptional espresso" category, and I didn't quite get why. Also you guys don't seem to chat about it as much here, like the Tea's, QM's or some others.

I do make a lot of milk based drinks, and Yes, I like to "experiment" with adjusting things.

Input will be helpful to make a final decision. I have to be honest; the practical side of me says, 2000 bucks is a lot to make coffee.

I want to say thanks because I learned a great deal from HB.

Thanks Much in advance

Hi there:

I've owned both a good hx machine, and double boiler machines. I think I'm pretty qualified to talk about them both. First off, no machine is gonna fix your poor technique or lousy raw materials, so do yourself a big favor by working hard on being consistent in your grind, dose, tamp, and buy very good coffee that is very fresh. These things are by far the most important once you have a minimally decent machine. I don't know much about the kitchenaid, but I can tell you that you can make espresso that blows most folks mind with a $200.00 Gaggia provided that the above conditions are optimized.

I own a La Spaz S1. It's a pretty solid machine. I think the reason it might have gotten an 8 here on HB could be related to temperature issues in which the boiler setpoint temperature must be several degrees higher than the desired temperature at the group. This is typical for double boiler machines that do not employ some sort of group heating through water convection. Even the LaMarzoccos and Synessos run a little cooler at the group than in the boiler. It's not an issue because the delta T remains pretty constant throughout the duty cycles you are likely to impose on the machine. Compared to the HX, E-61 style Astra Gourmet that I owned before the La Spaz - The LaSpaz is much easier to use wrt group flushing. I installed a temperature probe into my Astra group to aid in flushing and to monitor brewing temperature. It worked well enough, but not as well as the La Spaz. I know this because I mad extensive measurements of both machines. The spaz is just easier in this regard. Where the Astra kicked butt was in the steaming department. The Astra had more heating element power and a much bigger boiler so it kicked the ass out of the Spaz when it came to frothing.

I recently worked on a Brewtus that had a leak in its nether regions. I was unimpressed by the cause of the leak, which was due to a very cheap method of attaching plastic tubing to the brew boiler. The fix was pretty easy, but why was this necessary? On the positive side, I like the temperature controller better than the Spaz, I really like the implementation of the traditional lever e-61 group to the twin boiler layout, and it works. I stuck a thermofilter (I build them) on the Brewtus, and was pleased to discover that the brewing temperature was pretty much what the setpoint temperature indicated, demonstrating that this example of a Brewtus had the E-61 group pretty well tuned. It took me about 10 minutes to sort out the machine to the point that it made very nearly as good coffee as my modified LaMarzocco Linea. From a pure coffee standpoint I think the Brewtus beats the Spaz out. I believe the reasons for this have to do with the gentle pre-infusion scheme that the e-61 group employs, and the geometry of the portafilter. E-61 groups use 58mm diameter baskets. The Spaz uses 53, which I don't like nearly as well. The Spaz is better constructed, but espresso machines ain't rocket science. If you're handy with tools you can learn to work on them pretty easily.

That's my long-winded diatribe about the two camps, plus bonus rant. I'm not a fan of most hx machines unless you wanna buy a 1-group version of the Simonelli Aurelia (I forget the name, but Chris's coffee sells it). I suspect that is a very good machine that would kick the ass of the Spaz, be at least the brewing equal of the Brewtus, and steam like a locomotive. Dunno why no one on these pages has bought one. I'da thought Chris would have sold a boatload of them by now. Anyhoo beside the very trick Simonelli, the rest of em gotta get post-processed by you installing some sort of diagnostic scheme like Eric S's temperature monitor. Why do it when there's better technology. Get the good technology, then focus on what is really important, which is good raw materials, grind, distribution, dose, tamp, and TASTE.

Speaking of grinders, whaddya using and waddya upgrading to? I can tell you for sure that if you have to choose between a hot-shot espresso machine and a grinder ou are way better off with the cheapest e-61 bastard clone and a good conical grinder than you are with a LaMarzocco and a Solis Maestro. Minimally get a mazzer mini. You can do very well buying a commercial espresso grinder off ebay (Mazzer is a good choice here)and just replacing the burrset with new parts.

-Greg

Matthew Brinski wrote:Having said that, I don't see any pro reason to go with an HX machine over a DB outside a personal preference options and saving a few hundred dollars (which will hopefully change in the near future).

Really? An HX can change brew temperature in less than a minute, it consumes less energy, has a guaranteed fresh water supply for brewing, requires less effort to descale and maintain, and has less parts to break. That's some advantages off the top of my head, there may be others.

The major advantages of double boilers? Temperature stability, independently controlled steam pressure, reduced energy consumption (if you can turn off the steam boiler like the Vivaldi II), heats your kitchen in the winter. One caveat about double boilers: Don't assume you'll get monster steam just because there are two boilers, the Brewtus being the prime example.

gscace wrote:That's my long-winded diatribe about the two camps, plus bonus rant. I'm not a fan of most hx machines unless you wanna buy a 1-group version of the Simonelli Aurelia (I forget the name, but Chris's coffee sells it). I suspect that is a very good machine that would kick the ass of the Spaz, be at least the brewing equal of the Brewtus, and steam like a locomotive. Dunno why no one on these pages has bought one.

It's the Appia and sells for an eye-popping $3375. I tried out the two group that Counter Culture was evaluating, and I have to say, it was impressive. Rock solid temperature, nice forgiving group, steaming was a snap. Everyone thought it pulled shots better than the La Marzocco that day, but hey, it was only a quickie comparison. I think the higher forgiveness factor of the Aurelia disproportionately helps us part-time baristas.

HB wrote:Online discussions frequently use the term "thermal stability" ambiguously. Some posters mean a flat profile for a single extraction, others mean how well it tracks shot-to-shot. To which are you referring?

In terms of the Brewtus, I mean intershot. I will admit up front, it's based on dialogue with a user regarding stock performance prior to PID mod., rather than personal experience.