I am interested in trying out some flow and pressure profiling AND As I have owned for many years a double boiler e61 machine with a PID, I was thinking if buying an after market e61 flow control device to have my machine installed with it.

On the other hand there have been many here who have praised their experience with the GS3 MP or with the more expensive Slayer or Synesso single group machines where it comes to the ability to pre infuse for light roasts and to try pressure and flow profiling. Obviously it is far more expensive for me to consider such options when I could just retro fit the e61 flow control device to my existing e61 machine.

I would like to ask if the GS3 or Slayer offer any objective added abilities in respect of such preinfusion and profiling abilities vs the e61 flow control device? As far as I can tell, the Slayer also uses a needle valve like the flow control device while the GS3 uses a conical valve to restrict flow.

They just work better and give better tasting espresso. I wanted a Lelit Bianca but it just couldn't get close to what I get from the Strietman in terms of shot quality. And working with a GS3 from a friend of mine I can beat the Strietman in taste. That's the biggest difference for me as on paper a Bianca should be able to do what a GS3 can do. Those expensive machines are just far superior.

Thanks for your feedback, erik82. If mechanically there isn't any conceptual difference in the way they work, do you think that confirmation bias may have also skewed the subjective taste impressions to some degree? I ask because i used to dabble in hifi and audiophile listening as a hobby and I have learned the fiscally painful way how influential to the ears a visually beautiful, perfect fit and finish and stratospherically expensive ultimate hifi rig can be to making them sound better even before you switch them on!

In your shoes I'd suggest buying the piece for the machine you have and seeing if that's a direction you want to go. I would guess the main advantage past that of moving up would be better temperature stability and more steam. I really can't think of anything else those 2 machines might bring to the table. Not that I know everything, your machine with the replacement flow control piece should give you as much or more control over flow than those two machines.

Thanks ira for your reply and view. That is indeed the direction that seems most fiscally wise for me for now to pursue and if it turns out that I find the whole pressure or flow profiling to be more trouble than I am prepared to undergo to make my coffee, then I am only out of pocket typically a couple of hundred dollars or so.

Primacog wrote:Thanks for your feedback, erik82. If mechanically there isn't any conceptual difference in the way they work, do you think that confirmation bias may have also skewed the subjective taste impressions to some degree? I ask because i used to dabble in hifi and audiophile listening as a hobby and I have learned the fiscally painful way how influential to the ears a visually beautiful, perfect fit and finish and stratospherically expensive ultimate hifi rig can be to making them sound better even before you switch them on!

No confirmation bias here. I really wanted the Bianca (already put the Strietman up for sale) but after testing it it just couldn't even come close so quite the opposite of confrmation bias. Same for the GS3 as I do want one but it's a bit better then the Strietman for a lot more money.

Is your experience with the GS3 dependent on the flow profiling features or would you say that even the AV would deliver superior shots bc of temperature stability and water delivery?

As others have said try before you buy if you can. I assume you are talking about a single group Slayer. The flexibility to adjust on the Slayer is excellent. The single group is built around slowing the water flow. Even the stock basket IMS does for them slows the flow. I think many people on this board have shown you can get similar results with modifications to other machines. That said, there is a great appreciation by Slayer and GS3 owners of how the machines are built and how they "feel" when you drive them each day. Good luck in your decision.

ira wrote:I really can't think of anything else those 2 machines might bring to the table.

At least with the Slayer its PI system is unmatched unless your modded (needle and gear pump mods etc). An E61 w/ FC device sure as heck isn't even coming remotley close to that lol. It'll let you set the needle valve at whatever X flow point you set (ie 2g/s) and when going to pre-brew mode allows that at flawlessly controlled pressure and flow rate than slap into full brew to finish, that's what makes Slayer shot unlike anything else th. Not even the long PI mode on the DE1 is the same (the slayer style pull), we did side by side, DE1 also struggled and choked on the same grind setting for the Slayer. But, that's a bit of its negative as that's all it can do and really excelled for light med and light roast, can do darker roast and just pull normal and flip back to pre-brew to lower flow etc. If someone really want to profile all around yeah DE1 will slap it there, or even my slayer mod BDB as you have full manual control (or programmed with DE1)

I had a GS3 modded. I find myself leaning towards levers though now. Almost bought the R24 since you don't have to plumb and it has the advanced profiling and PI adjustment which is unique for a lever, but I have no room temporarily in this kitchen. But every time I've had a shot off a Londinium just been amazing, almost like you'd have to purposely try to pull a bad shot to get a bad shot.

drH wrote: Is your experience with the GS3 dependent on the flow profiling features or would you say that even the AV would deliver superior shots bc of temperature stability and water delivery?

The AV should also beat an E61 with pressure profiling as it's far superior in temperature stability and water delivery. That's also why the Strietman performs so well as it's also a saturated group. Until today the best shots I've ever had where all from a KvdW without any type of PI ability but with the best temperature stability of any machine. Those big boy class machines like LM, KvdW, Slayer and Synesso just deliver superior results compared to prosumer machines.