La Marzocco GS3 MP or Slayer vs any E61 double boiler PID espresso machine with a Flow Control Device installed - Page 3

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
cebseb

#21: Post by cebseb »

Everyone here has made some great points, but I have yet seen the question of maintenance and after purchase support come into the conversation.

After having rebuilt and restored several machines over the years, I have grown an appreciation for robust and simply designed machines that perform without fail. At the same time, I have acquired a disdain for overly complex machines built with proprietary parts that require a technician to service if anything were to happen.

Your choices seem to encompass the entire range of machines I refer to. The e61 (Bianca) being the former and the Slayer being the latter. I would place the GS3 somewhere in the middle. I may be biased, but if I had to choose, I would go with the GS3 since the design has been around long enough to make most of its parts ubiquitous and the rebuild videos are available with little search. Also, the GS3 offers a tried and tested profiling system with the added benefit of several aftermarket mods being available.

Anyways. Good luck on your decision!

Primacog (original poster)

#22: Post by Primacog (original poster) »

cmin wrote:At least with the Slayer its PI system is unmatched unless your modded (needle and gear pump mods etc). An E61 w/ FC device sure as heck isn't even coming remotley close to that lol. It'll let you set the needle valve at whatever X flow point you set (ie 2g/s) and when going to pre-brew mode allows that at flawlessly controlled pressure and flow rate than slap into full brew to finish, that's what makes Slayer shot unlike anything else th. Not even the long PI mode on the DE1 is the same (the slayer style pull), we did side by side, DE1 also struggled and choked on the same grind setting for the Slayer. But, that's a bit of its negative as that's all it can do and really excelled for light med and light roast, can do darker roast and just pull normal and flip back to pre-brew to lower flow etc. If someone really want to profile all around yeah DE1 will slap it there, or even my slayer mod BDB as you have full manual control (or programmed with DE1)

I had a GS3 modded. I find myself leaning towards levers though now. Almost bought the R24 since you don't have to plumb and it has the advanced profiling and PI adjustment which is unique for a lever, but I have no room temporarily in this kitchen. But every time I've had a shot off a Londinium just been amazing, almost like you'd have to purposely try to pull a bad shot to get a bad shot.
Having been reading up on opinions on the synesso and gs3, it appears that they were made to pressure or flow profiling while the slayer was made to be able to do long pre infusions and to do blooming shots. Am I wrong to think that these two dimensions were originally inspired by the abilities of the traditional lever machine which is able to do both to some degree? Perhaps these high tech pump machines of today can do more variations of long preinfusion and pressure profiling than a lever can and do so with less trouble and muscle power - especially when compared to a spring lever - but it seems ironic to me that so much tech concentration is being applied to essentially reproduce what 1940s or 1950s tech was doing with a lever and then with some springs...
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NelisB

#23: Post by NelisB »

KvdW uses spring technique (ppic and idromatic) to smoothen out pressure throughout extraction. Result in the cup is unparalleled.

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz

#24: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

cebseb wrote:Everyone here has made some great points, but I have yet seen the question of maintenance and after purchase support come into the conversation.
Slayer is really good about preventative maintenance. They have an online video class. They have videos for each step. What they suggest for annual PM as they call it really isn't needed annually, maybe every other year. Cost on a bi-annual basis for parts is about $150. Mostly done with wrenches, screwdrivers and lube. A number of O-rings and washers, but also the level probe if calcification, and the anti-suction valve, and It's all laid out by them.

I couldn't be happier with the way they handle this.

My machine has been flawless for four years.
The whining about pumps on Slayers was due to one bad batch. The whining about some other parts is usually due to bad water being used.
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CarefreeBuzzBuzz

#25: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Jake_G wrote:Because that would end the shot and open the brew valve.

Blooming is a zero flow situation, but you want some amount of pressure to be absorbed by the puck. No flow in, and no flow out, except what weeps out of the bottom of the basket. Ending the shot vents all pressure, so that doesn't work with a Slayer or GS/3., or most other machines equipped with a 3-way brew valve.
I am sure I will be accused of in"Decent" exposure, but I will go on on this limb and say that unless you are super taster, you could match blooming by adjusting the pre-brew aspect on the Slayer with the needle valve. The whole purpose is to bloom the puck with pressure but a slow flow rate adjustable to your liking, then go to your 9bar, but also with the ability to reduce it later as showing in the "dialing in diagram" I posted.

My caveat of the super taster comes from observing tasting events (wine, coffee, desserts) with my wife who was/is a pastry chef, and her similar friends, to those without such long term training. With all the variables that go into a single cup as well.

So mechanical differences accepted, how much anyone could tell....hmmmm.....guessing it's not that many.
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BaristaBoy E61

#26: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:So mechanical differences accepted, how much anyone could tell....hmmmm.....guessing it's not that many.
Espresso crafting is also about perceived perception and the joy of the ride.
Like a well designed sports car, the espresso machine has to visually thrill even when standing still.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

PeetsFan

#27: Post by PeetsFan »

I travel frequently and seek out the best cafes in every city I visit. When I find a true gem, I try to talk with the barista to show my appreciation and to learn more. One consistent comment is that their machine is all about continually supplying brew water and steam. When they get a long line, they don't want their machine to slow them down. But this is not a characteristic which matters in our home machines.

Plenty of people spend $10,000's to remodel and beautify their kitchens, and (obviously) I see nothing wrong with making an espresso machine part of that.

My sincere answer to the question of E61, GS3 or Slayer is this: Which do you want, and can you budget it? Honestly, they're all marvelous and it's really about what will bring you the most joy. Maybe the Slayer will make more delicious espresso but they'll all let you outperform any barista in town.

cmin

#28: Post by cmin »

NelisB wrote:KvdW uses spring technique (ppic and idromatic) to smoothen out pressure throughout extraction. Result in the cup is unparalleled.
I've always wonder how that made their shots taste, kinda like lever'ish in a way?

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz

#29: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

BaristaBoy E61 wrote:Espresso crafting is also about perceived perception and the joy of the ride.
Like a well designed sports car, the espresso machine has to visually thrill even when standing still.
Very well stated.
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another_jim
Team HB

#30: Post by another_jim »

BaristaBoy E61 wrote:Espresso crafting is also about perceived perception and the joy of the ride.
Like a well designed sports car, the espresso machine has to visually thrill even when standing still.
Your first statement makes good sense; for a hobbyist, the process is at least as enjoyable as the outcome. Your second statement makes no sense; unless you're OK with an inflatable Slayer toy on your counter.
Jim Schulman