La Marzocco GS3 MP or Slayer vs any E61 double boiler PID espresso machine with a Flow Control Device installed - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
Plinyyounger
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#11: Post by Plinyyounger »

I struggled with the same question with for same machines. For now my decision to stay with an E61 comes down to plumbing. The GS3 uses a lot of water and is better plumbed, slayer needs to be plumbed, my E61 doesn't so I'm staying with for now. I finally chose the slayer for when I'm ready to make it work in my kitchen. Interestingly enough, since I'm in a different home dealing with many projects over the last six months, my desire to move away from my E61 has faded. I may still pull the trigger eventually, but I'm not so sure now, I can make lovely espresso with my machine.
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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#12: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Plinyyounger wrote:......, slayer needs to be plumbed, ....
With new version you can pull from a tank using rotary pump. I favor making your own water for these high end machines.

From their website:
Rotary Pump
Commercial-style pump gets to pressure fast and can draw from an external reservoir
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SteveRhinehart
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#13: Post by SteveRhinehart »

I've used all three setups, and for my money I'd go with the FC E61. There will be obvious build quality differences as others have pointed out, but in the cup I don't think you will miss out on anything in particular. The GS3 MP has similar on-the-fly flow adjustment over a fairly small degree of rotation, however wastes a lot more water to the drip tray due to its design. If you want to try longer slow profiles past 30 seconds or so, you will end up sending a lot of water to the drip tray or drain instead of back to the reservoir as most E61 machines will. Slayer style shots are quite easy to achieve after you learn your flow rates on the valve. For me, I can run a "pre-brew" at just a hair past 9 o'clock on the valve and then switch to "brew" by flicking the valve up to 12 o'clock, taking a fraction of a second longer than the switch of the paddle on the Slayer.

My main drawback at this point is that very long, slow shots can deplete the hot water from the brew boiler and cause a very clear decline in brew temperature. A blooming shot, for example, involves a quick soak of the puck followed by 20-30 seconds of zero flow. However the pump is still running in that time with the flow valve fully closed, so you're pumping hot water from the boiler to the reservoir. On my machine that's about a 10 F temp drop - others may be able to keep up better if they cycle the heating element more or have a good way to preheat water before the brew boiler. For some coffees this is no big deal but it does rule out blooming shots for others. A larger brew tank and saturated group, as found in the GS3 and Slayer machines, could very well do a better job of managing the temperatures but I'm not entirely sure how either one could achieve a blooming shot as designed. Maybe in the Slayer you could fully close the needle valve and use the prebrew stage on the paddle as your blooming setting.

michael
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#14: Post by michael »

I like the slayer, better temp stability than the GS3, better build quality (less noise and vibration) and more repeatable; haven't tried a db machine with flow control

You can make vg coffee with both machines 8)

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Jake_G
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#15: Post by Jake_G »

SteveRhinehart wrote:A larger brew tank and saturated group, as found in the GS3 and Slayer machines, could very well do a better job of managing the temperatures but I'm not entirely sure how either one could achieve a blooming shot as designed.
Any machine with a rotary pump will bypass cold water around the pump, rather than pumping cold water into the boiler and hot water into the reservoir. The fact that the groups are saturated and don't require a thermosyphon to keep them at temperature is the other winning ticket. In stock form, both machines are still lacking a kill switch for the pump, which is a better way to do a blooming shot than just running the pump against a closed off needle valve.

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#16: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz replying to Jake_G »

Sorry I have missed the whole blooming shot thing but why not just return the Slayer paddle to the far right then if you want to stop everything? Yes its manual and you would have to use a scale that won't reset for timing if you are following it that closely but.....
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Jake_G
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#17: Post by Jake_G »

Because that would end the shot and open the brew valve.

Blooming is a zero flow situation, but you want some amount of pressure to be absorbed by the puck. No flow in, and no flow out, except what weeps out of the bottom of the basket. Ending the shot vents all pressure, so that doesn't work with a Slayer or GS/3., or most other machines equipped with a 3-way brew valve.
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cmin
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#18: Post by cmin »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:Sorry I have missed the whole blooming shot thing but why not just return the Slayer paddle to the far right then if you want to stop everything? Yes its manual and you would have to use a scale that won't reset for timing if you are following it that closely but.....
Like Jake said that'll just activate the 3 way. That's why the DE1 can do true blooming shots, it can stop the activation of the 3 way.

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Jake_G
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#19: Post by Jake_G replying to cmin »

Well, technically, it doesn't have a 3-way. But yeah.

Closed FCD or center position on an E-61 will do the same, but I prefer the simplicity of simply shutting the pump off.

Slayer has the added complexity of fighting line pressure, since the original single group machines had to be plumbed or hooked to a Flow Jet. To bloom, you need to establish pressure at the puck and then seal off the brew chamber. Reservoir-fed machines can do this by shutting off the pump, as there is almost always a check valve that keeps pressure from back-feeding to the reservoir, but plumbed machines would maintain line pressure on the puck, which isn't really a bloom, per se. So you'd need a kill switch and another solenoid that shuts off the water supply to the group. It could be done, but I haven't seen an implementation that does this so far.

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cmin
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#20: Post by cmin replying to Jake_G »

Yeah, you know what I meant haha. Still waking up after heavy bourbon party.... Oye