I'm just starting to rebuild interest in espresso again. We used to own a Rancilio Silvia with an add-on PID kit a number of years ago, and it was my first and only foray into making espresso at home. I sold it when we cut way back on our coffee intake. Back then, the Silvia was pretty much the king of budget espresso machines, with a solid boiler and steam wand for the price. Adding PID really helped stabilize temperatures so you didn't have to surf the wide-ranging thermostat in the stock units. And then came the units with PID mods already installed. So, that's where I'm coming from, having been out of the game for nearly a decade.

I'm considering an espresso machine again. I do still have a grinder, the Le Lit PL53 (now discontinued for newer models, of course), though I'm not sure if it's really in the same class anymore for home espresso based on all the recent grinder reviews I'm seeing out there. Back in the day, that grinder was a great budget buy for espresso, so I imagine it could still produce a decent cup even now.

But as far as espresso machines go, the Silvia was solidly-made. I know it's gone up in price since I bought ours back in the day. But are there better options for the money nowadays? Or is the Silvia the go-to even now, especially if you have the PID mod? The Silvia Pro X looks intriguing, but I don't think I'm ready to drop that much money. But the Silvia M is affordable, especially blemished models, if they're available.

So, what's the current verdict? What's the current go-to budget espresso machine (or top machines) for someone actually wanting to make good espresso?

I have a Breville Bambino (not the Plus; just the basic Bambino), which is quite affordable and the espresso coming out of it is very tasty. And the milk steaming capability is really incredibly good. So there is one budget possibility. The basic machine is about $150 cheaper than the Plus and to my mind it is preferable because the milk steaming wand is much more adjustable. It lacks the temperature control for automatic milk steaming but that's a feature I don't really need anyway.

A Cafelat Robot and an Option-O Mini can be had for less than a Silvia alone, without PID or grinder. In my opinion, the Robot reliably produces notably superior espresso to the Silvia.

Times have definitely changed, both in machines and in grinders.

The PL53 "Fred" I think was one of several similar grinders based on the Tre Spade burrs. They are adequate, but there are now excellent hand grinders in the $100-300 range, as well as units like the Option-O Mini that outperform older designs both in the cup as well as in better workflow and low retention.

tinroofrusted wrote:I have a Breville Bambino (not the Plus; just the basic Bambino), which is quite affordable and the espresso coming out of it is very tasty. And the milk steaming capability is really incredibly good. So there is one budget possibility. The basic machine is about $150 cheaper than the Plus and to my mind it is preferable because the milk steaming wand is much more adjustable. It lacks the temperature control for automatic milk steaming but that's a feature I don't really need anyway.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look up some reviews and check out the Bambino. Also, I dig your handle. Does your Chrysler seat about 20..?

baldheadracing wrote:I'd say that:
- the Silvia was surpassed about ten years ago;
- Lelit is the king of budget/value prosumer machines that cost less than the Breville Dual Boiler; and
- the Breville Dual Boiler reigns supreme in value-for-money (in machines that can steam).

Also, https://www.pantechnicondesign.com recently re-introduced the Crossland CC1

Thanks for the recommendations. This is exactly why I asked. Grinder tech has exploded in the last few years, with much more-affordable flat burr grinders and better conical burr grinders than ever. I figured the same would be true of espresso machines. The Silvia still seems like a solid buy, and it's a tank. But features and capability have to have improved over the last decade. I do want something reliable and durable, too, though. I'm happy to pay a little extra to have something without fancy features but that will last and make good espresso.

I'm not familiar with the Crossland CC1. I did see Lelit has really gotten into the espresso machine game since I last looked around. I hadn't even heard of Lelit before, but bought the PL53 because it was an up-and-comer with a very good reputation in the budget price range. It does have VERY poor retention, imo. I feel like the static and retention require thwacking the grinder to knock out grinds every single time and it's irritating. I stopped using it recently, as I have only been making pour-over and Aeropress, so I invested in an Ode Gen 2. I'm absolutely not ruling out Lelit, but I will say I really dislike their website, lol.

I know Breville has been in espresso for a very long time. My main concern is durability. Back when I picked up the Silvia, it seemed like Breville was only so-so with quality control, and their machines required some calibration or adjustment before they'd really make good espresso. Has that changed over the last several years? Or was I just misinformed back then?

Jeff wrote:A Cafelat Robot and an Option-O Mini can be had for less than a Silvia alone, without PID or grinder. In my opinion, the Robot reliably produces notably superior espresso to the Silvia.

Times have definitely changed, both in machines and in grinders.

The PL53 "Fred" I think was one of several similar grinders based on the Tre Spade burrs. They are adequate, but there are now excellent hand grinders in the $100-300 range, as well as units like the Option-O Mini that outperform older designs both in the cup as well as in better workflow and low retention.

I've seen Option-O's Lagom Mini and P64 grinders popping up in reviews on YouTube. I like the designs, but I swear I saw some comments mentioning retention issues and needing bellows to get all of the ground coffee to come out. I've gotten spoiled with the Ode Gen 2. It has virtually zero retention and I love it. Too bad it doesn't do espresso...

Hand grinders may be an option, but I usually don't have a ton of time to make my morning coffee, so I'd prefer electric. But I've seen some very positive comments and reviews on hand grinders from Comandante and 1ZPresso. I'm actually watching a video on a bunch of hand grinders right now.

I'm not sure if I'm up for a manual/lever espresso machine, but it could be a new and interesting skill to learn. I'm a huge fan of novelty.

I have both a Mini and a P64 on my counter, along with a couple other grinders. I don't find a need for bellows on either unit. I do palm-tap the Mini, but that's pretty minimal work and no extra pieces. The retention is low on both grinders, probably significantly less than anything from a decade ago. I also have a 1ZPresso K-series that has been getting a workout during the power outages from storms here. It is "easy" for espresso up through medium roast (typical US-style "filter") in around 30-45 seconds. It is easy for filter grind with lighter coffees. Espresso grind of lighter coffees, generally intended for filter, can be a bit jarring.

A Robot (or Flair 58 or ...) isn't for everyone. A Robot and a Kingrinder K6 is one of the least expensive ways to reliably make great espresso. For me, if you're going to spend more than that, you should be getting better espresso, a more enjoyable workflow for you, or acknowledge that you're buying something else for appearance.

Constrained by that budget, if I didn't want to go fully manual with the Robot, I'd definitely choose the CC1 too.

New to all this myself. Bought a Silvia w/PID in October and once I paired it with a Niche Zero my espresso has been great. I do still struggle with the steam wand on it and not a fan of the whole single boiler aspect of it, so opted for the lazier route and bought a Breville milk frother. Not interested in latte art, just drinking, so it works just fine.

Are there better values on espresso machines with more features, yep... and I know that now. Flow control would be awesome to play around with for example... and would love to have a pressure gauge. But again... for now it works great.

Also... Miss Silvia is a queen... not a king!

Jeff wrote:I have both a Mini and a P64 on my counter, along with a couple other grinders. I don't find a need for bellows on either unit. I do palm-tap the Mini, but that's pretty minimal work and no extra pieces. The retention is low on both grinders, probably significantly less than anything from a decade ago. I also have a 1ZPresso K-series that has been getting a workout during the power outages from storms here. It is "easy" for espresso up through medium roast (typical US-style "filter") in around 30-45 seconds. It is easy for filter grind with lighter coffees. Espresso grind of lighter coffees, generally intended for filter, can be a bit jarring.

A Robot (or Flair 58 or ...) isn't for everyone. A Robot and a Kingrinder K6 is one of the least expensive ways to reliably make great espresso. For me, if you're going to spend more than that, you should be getting better espresso, a more enjoyable workflow for you, or acknowledge that you're buying something else for appearance.

I wonder if I'm confusing the Lagom grinders with others. I've been watching a bunch of grinder review videos recently and saw several with bellows that were pretty hideous. Functional or not, I'm just not a fan of bellows, so when I was thinking they used bellows I flinched a little bit.

Kingrinder... another name that's new to me. I love all the recommendations! I do get a bit of analysis paralysis at times, but I also really love the hunt for quality products and don't mind spending the time to do some research before making a decision.

TomC wrote:Constrained by that budget, if I didn't want to go fully manual with the Robot, I'd definitely choose the CC1 too.

Another vote for the CC1. Interesting! Definitely need to do some research on this one.

skink91 wrote:New to all this myself. Bought a Silvia w/PID in October and once I paired it with a Niche Zero my espresso has been great. I do still struggle with the steam wand on it and not a fan of the whole single boiler aspect of it, so opted for the lazier route and bought a Breville milk frother. Not interested in latte art, just drinking, so it works just fine.

Are there better values on espresso machines with more features, yep... and I know that now. Flow control would be awesome to play around with for example... and would love to have a pressure gauge. But again... for now it works great.

Also... Miss Silvia is a queen... not a king!

Totally my bad! Miss Silvia is absolutely a queen, not a king! My apologies if I offended anyone with my thoughtless remark!

Thanks for sharing your experience. I found the Silvia to have some good steam power, but the single boiler means time between switching from brewing to steaming. It didn't bother me back in the day, and I'm sure I'd be fine with it now. It sounds like there are some newer, better options nowadays.

I just noticed that you're in Colorado. I don't know if Ross "takes guests" at Odyssey Espresso, but it might be worth an email or message. https://www.odysseyespresso.com/argos-l ... so-machine

It's still "coming soon" and many of us are hoping that it works as well as one can reasonably expect. Orders are supposed to open up again once the first round ships. I'd wait for some reviews before plunking down $1,000-ish on one.