HX versus single boiler E61 espresso machine: Pure shot quality & cost of servicing
-
- Posts: 13
- Joined: 6 years ago
Looking at: Quickmill Carola (SB), ECM Classika PID (SBDU) or Rocket Appartamento (HX)
& my main question: Will an HX (heat exchanger) machine produce a better or consistently better espresso shot than a SBDU (single boiler)? & I am only talking about E61 machines here.
I would like to raise a couple of points/questions about my recent purchase of my first "real" espresso machine.
I am a 100% espresso drinker, maybe 2-3 a day & I might make the occasional milk drink for my girlfriend, but I really only care about having the best quality shot in the bottom of the cup!!
I was about to buy the ECM Classika PID - Single boiler, Great design & build quality, E61, PID = adjustability/consistency, & good for occasional milk drinks.
Then I discovered the Rocket Appartamento - HX machine, similar price, also great design, E61 & here's the main thing: The guy in the shop told me "the HX would make more consistently a better espresso than a SBDU", but I failed to understand why!!
He told me: "the temperature variation of brew water would vary less in an HX machine than in a SBDU".
"The PID in a single boiler would help a bit but would still not be as consistent as an HX"
Can someone please verify or elaborate on this?
I understand the E61 helps to stabilise brew temp, but of course also better to start with a consistent brew temp.
So then of course I wanted to buy the HX!!!....but...
I was then informed that "unless I made half a dozen espressi & half a dozen cappuccini in a day, I should not buy the HX, basically & because without constant use it would clog up (with calcium & other mineral deposits etc) after 6 months & furthermore an HX machine needed servicing every 2 years at a cost of between €200-300!!!" Wow!! Cost of servicing is something I have not really seen discussed on these forums & should really be considered before purchasing. Also the guy was a repairman, not a salesman (well maybe a bit of a salesman)..& said he sees these problems a lot.
I then went into reverse & bought the Quickmill Carola - No steam, E61, PID (in the back but fine) much cheaper & much smaller footprint (also important!!), maybe not as "design" as the ECM but the lack of steam wand & size make it look quite tidy/minimal. I considered it a good compromise for my situation & should still be able to make a top quality espresso.
Anyway it's funny to read a lot of forums & then go to a shop & find out something else, but I will appreciate peoples comments even if confusing me further ...
Ps...all this aside from other variables, quality of beans, preparation & grinder (I have a Eureka Mignon btw..reasonable for starting out I think?) etc.
& my main question: Will an HX (heat exchanger) machine produce a better or consistently better espresso shot than a SBDU (single boiler)? & I am only talking about E61 machines here.
I would like to raise a couple of points/questions about my recent purchase of my first "real" espresso machine.
I am a 100% espresso drinker, maybe 2-3 a day & I might make the occasional milk drink for my girlfriend, but I really only care about having the best quality shot in the bottom of the cup!!
I was about to buy the ECM Classika PID - Single boiler, Great design & build quality, E61, PID = adjustability/consistency, & good for occasional milk drinks.
Then I discovered the Rocket Appartamento - HX machine, similar price, also great design, E61 & here's the main thing: The guy in the shop told me "the HX would make more consistently a better espresso than a SBDU", but I failed to understand why!!
He told me: "the temperature variation of brew water would vary less in an HX machine than in a SBDU".
"The PID in a single boiler would help a bit but would still not be as consistent as an HX"
Can someone please verify or elaborate on this?
I understand the E61 helps to stabilise brew temp, but of course also better to start with a consistent brew temp.
So then of course I wanted to buy the HX!!!....but...
I was then informed that "unless I made half a dozen espressi & half a dozen cappuccini in a day, I should not buy the HX, basically & because without constant use it would clog up (with calcium & other mineral deposits etc) after 6 months & furthermore an HX machine needed servicing every 2 years at a cost of between €200-300!!!" Wow!! Cost of servicing is something I have not really seen discussed on these forums & should really be considered before purchasing. Also the guy was a repairman, not a salesman (well maybe a bit of a salesman)..& said he sees these problems a lot.
I then went into reverse & bought the Quickmill Carola - No steam, E61, PID (in the back but fine) much cheaper & much smaller footprint (also important!!), maybe not as "design" as the ECM but the lack of steam wand & size make it look quite tidy/minimal. I considered it a good compromise for my situation & should still be able to make a top quality espresso.
Anyway it's funny to read a lot of forums & then go to a shop & find out something else, but I will appreciate peoples comments even if confusing me further ...
Ps...all this aside from other variables, quality of beans, preparation & grinder (I have a Eureka Mignon btw..reasonable for starting out I think?) etc.
-
- Posts: 219
- Joined: 6 years ago
https://clivecoffee.com/blogs/learn/esp ... by-broiler
Clive has their opinion on it here. If you don't care about milk drinks like you said, then the SBDU or high end thermoblock would be their suggestion for you.
On the water: avoiding scale buildup isn't that hard. Running the right water through your machine will allow you to operate virtually forever, regardless of the boiler type. Refer to the water section here. Personally I use a zero-water filter, and add baking soda and epsom salt in controlled quantities.
Clive has their opinion on it here. If you don't care about milk drinks like you said, then the SBDU or high end thermoblock would be their suggestion for you.
On the water: avoiding scale buildup isn't that hard. Running the right water through your machine will allow you to operate virtually forever, regardless of the boiler type. Refer to the water section here. Personally I use a zero-water filter, and add baking soda and epsom salt in controlled quantities.
-
- Posts: 1216
- Joined: 7 years ago
I've used a HX for a long time. I would not recommend a HX if you drink primarily espresso. The cooling flush uses a lot of water and consistency is much more difficult shot to shot. I view the HX as for someone who primarily makes milk drinks and doesn't want to pay up for a dual boiler.
If I were you I'd probably buy the Classika PID. You will want the ability to adjust brew temps to dial in each espresso shot. Another option would be the CASA V to save money if you want faster warm up and aren't as concerned on brew temps.
I think someone has given you bad information. Most people believe a HX E61 is very LOW maintenance, not high maintenance. If you use good water the only issues you should ever have (outside of seals wearing over time, etc) would be a heating element replacement, pump replacement, and pressure stat replacement. In fact, many manufacturers will tell you that they are comfortable with a user descaling a HX whereas they want a dual boiler professionally descaled.
But besides all of that, given your use case, the Classika PID would be a perfect machine for you. You can always buy a FLAIR as well if you later decide you'd like to try some flow profiling.
If I were you I'd probably buy the Classika PID. You will want the ability to adjust brew temps to dial in each espresso shot. Another option would be the CASA V to save money if you want faster warm up and aren't as concerned on brew temps.
I think someone has given you bad information. Most people believe a HX E61 is very LOW maintenance, not high maintenance. If you use good water the only issues you should ever have (outside of seals wearing over time, etc) would be a heating element replacement, pump replacement, and pressure stat replacement. In fact, many manufacturers will tell you that they are comfortable with a user descaling a HX whereas they want a dual boiler professionally descaled.
But besides all of that, given your use case, the Classika PID would be a perfect machine for you. You can always buy a FLAIR as well if you later decide you'd like to try some flow profiling.
-
- Posts: 219
- Joined: 6 years ago
My first love was the Classika PID. As I think Ben Piff from Clive commented (I think), the Classika's hardware for pulling shots is identical to the ecm synchronika.
Anyways, Im not sure why it doesnt get more love. Likely because its probably a little spendy still for what it does. Moving up to the Pro 300 is not a big jump, and you get quite a bit more machine. It also depends on whether you think E61 is a timeless design, or something thats starting to show its age. Its hard to find a ton of info on what people think of the steam performance. For the occasional milk drink, waiting a minute for the steam pressure to rise seems really reasonable.
Anyways, Im not sure why it doesnt get more love. Likely because its probably a little spendy still for what it does. Moving up to the Pro 300 is not a big jump, and you get quite a bit more machine. It also depends on whether you think E61 is a timeless design, or something thats starting to show its age. Its hard to find a ton of info on what people think of the steam performance. For the occasional milk drink, waiting a minute for the steam pressure to rise seems really reasonable.
-
- Posts: 1216
- Joined: 7 years ago
The Classika should produce a better shot than the Pro 300 overall, given its beefier design and better preinfusion via E61. Obviously the Pro 300 is a great dual boiler, but for straight shots I'd rather have the E61 and look of the Classika.
If the OP does drink primarily espresso, then the rare occasion he does a cappuccino won't be a big deal. If you drink milk drinks daily, a SBDU would get old, VERY FAST.
If the OP does drink primarily espresso, then the rare occasion he does a cappuccino won't be a big deal. If you drink milk drinks daily, a SBDU would get old, VERY FAST.
-
- Posts: 219
- Joined: 6 years ago
Jay - I think youve been relatively unimpressed with reservoir + e61 preinfusion though, no? I imagine the trick of turning the pump on and immediately off, waiting 5 or 10 seconds, and then running the rest of the shot would work for either e61 or Pro 300.
- Randy G.
- Posts: 5340
- Joined: 17 years ago
Rare milk use? Excellent espresso? Uhhh... is the obvious answer a lever machine?
EspressoMyEspresso.com - 2000-2023 - a good run, its time is done
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: 9 years ago
Randy has a great point here.
At first I would have pointed the OP to look at Bezzera Unica PID from Casabarista.nl (no, you don't need an HX).
But after Randy's point, I would encourage you to look into the wonderful world of lever machines and then check http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/contatti_eng.htm
He is restoring old lever machines and selling them around the world for modest prices. An Arrarex Caravel might be perfect for you?
At first I would have pointed the OP to look at Bezzera Unica PID from Casabarista.nl (no, you don't need an HX).
But after Randy's point, I would encourage you to look into the wonderful world of lever machines and then check http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/contatti_eng.htm
He is restoring old lever machines and selling them around the world for modest prices. An Arrarex Caravel might be perfect for you?
-
- Posts: 891
- Joined: 6 years ago
So what's wrong with the Carola -- I have one and for espresso what else do you need?
-
- Posts: 219
- Joined: 6 years ago
Ive also gone down the road of the lever machine, but dont want to deal with buying and sourcing old or vintage parts. Minus the micro casa leva, the new pavonis dont seem nearly as solid as the their pre-millenium counterparts. I also find the elektras to be too much style wise. Somehow the pavonis are the only ones for me to walk that perfect style line.