THe Bezzera, might be the better machine. Here is a WLL comparison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn1S23pGPiQ

Bluenoser wrote:I posted some questions about the Profitec Pro 500 PID on WLL youtube video link (in the comments section)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ps4JfqRPuI
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Marc from WLL replied quickly and gave some great info. Seems the current manual might be out of date and the boiler temps should be higher. He also posted a video that shows the Pro 500's steam power at .8 bar and it seems very strong.

This gives me a lot of confidence in this machine. Might be my next purchase.

ben8jam wrote:I just tried this on my Pro 700. 175g milk gained 18g after steaming up to 140F. Not sure what this tells me though?

I think most milk gains from 18 to 30 grams water on steaming from various machines on 150-200g of milk..... this is from my memory in reading other articles about steaming.. seems to be pretty standard.. I know Seattle Coffee did some tests on an HX and it gained 30 gram on 250g . I think it has more to do with how long the steam wand is in the milk. If slayer only adds 12 grams, that is amazing, but I think Slayers steam in under 6 seconds.. not sure I could get my eyes focused and hand steady in that short time.. grin... . I am thinking most prosumer machines don't produce super-heated steam so likely as long as it is above some threshold, steam is steam once the nozzle is wide open. Water and sputtering likely comes from some condensation point from the boiler to the wand tip (unless the steam is just barely in that phase).

The 500/300/700 use some type of plastic tube inside, I think. I've heard some people wonder if an internal metal tube, once hot would add less water, or even using a normal steam wand without inner tube is actually better.. Gotta' think the manufacturers would have tested this though.

Sort of an interesting conversation, but too many variable for me to process.

I have found that on my low-end machine my problem in creating good micro-foam had much to do with the velocity of the steam exiting the wand and not creating a good roll. My milk, at bottom, did not have enough foam incorporated and so when I went to draw something, the milk sank. With lots of trial and error I found a 'sweet spot' for the wand. But if I twitch, the milk is not as good..

What I'm guessing is that the Pro 500 would have more velocity for its steam over the 300 and might help to make finer micro foam. Just a guess.

Sounds like you got a pretty good understanding on the Pro 500 now.

Hopefully I didn't rock the boat to much over the steaming. It seemed like you're someone who's into the details., so I thought I'd jump in there with you; to help ensure you have a solid handle on the Pro 500 pro's & con's before you bought it. Which it seems like you do.

Now it's just time to pull the trigger and start enjoying the effects of over caffeination!

Bluenoser wrote:I am just in the 'about to purchase' phase and am waffling much over an HX machine or lower level DB purchase.

The latest HX PID machines, which WLL just reviewed, (and in particular the Profitec PRO 500 PID) really seem like they tick all the boxes. And the flow restriction system seems to give much more stable brew temps. But as I look through some numbers, I'm wondering if the steam performance on these machines might actually be worse than machines with smaller steam boilers.

For my rationale I'll use the Profitec 500 PID for example.

For my long term education on espresso I want my next machine to be able to range brew temps from 195 to 205. Taking the worse case for steam performance, let's say I want the brew temp to be 195. From the Profitec manual, I would set the PID to 244. This seems low for the boiler temp from what I've read. I found a graph by "Eric" (of Eric's thermometer?) that indicated 244 steam temp would be roughly 0.87 bar at sea level. Some other tables seem to indicate the pressure might be even lower. I'm no physicist so I cannot validate these numbers.

Most pressure stats have their lowest setting above this from what I read.

So, in real life, how does something like the Profitec Pro 500 PID perform on steaming when the PID is set to 244?. Even with a larger boiler, I'm thinking it might perform worse than the Pro 300 where I can crank the PressureStat up to 1.2-1.4 bar.

I'd be very interested in hearing from any owners of a Profitec Pro 500 PID to know what the steam performance is like when the PID is in this lower brew range.

It almost seems like the Profitec Pro 500 should have dropped 60 degrees instead of 50 in creating the brew temp profile.

dave

I'll happily run some tests on steam power under 1 bar on my pro 500 PID. I'll screw around with it this weekend and let you know what I find.

My measurements on mass gained after frothing:

Pstat range: 0.95-1.15Bar
Frothing Tip: 4 Hole Profitec Insulated
Milk: 2%

Initial Volume: 155ml
Initial Weight: 294.6g

Final Volume: 258ml
Final Weight: 311.3g

Weight Gained: 16.7g

Radio.YYZ wrote:My measurements on mass gained after frothing:


Weight Gained: 16.7g

Did your 500 come with a 4 hole steam wand? I'm hoping mine comes with 2 hole (as 4 hole might steam too fast for my level of control).. 4 hole will be faster to steam, and gives you only 17g of water which is quite good, I think.

If you bought the PID version it is 2 hole steaming tip.

4 hole is a bit much when i am steaming small amount of milk and i think two steam would be better, i will purchase the 2 hole steam tip for my machine once they are available locally! As for how much water two hole would add, something only the pro 500 pid users can answer.