Help a lever newbie out? La Pavoni Pro? Wait for an Argos? A Vectis? Or, or...?
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Accidemic627
Hello home-baristas,
I'm an avid reader of many of the forums here, but posting for the first time as we speak.
I've caught the manual lever bug... badly... and would be grateful for some guidance from the community.
I suppose some background is in order first: just last December, with no prior home barista experience, I bought myself a Breville Bambino Plus on a whim (I see all your eyes rolling; bear with me), along with a bottomless portafilter and an IMS 18g precision basket. Within weeks, two things became clear: (1) there had been an espresso fanatic hiding inside me that had just been unleashed; (2) the Bambino Plus had already proven itself a woefully inadequate tool for my new habit... even after the purchase of a digital scale and my Niche Zero (which certainly improved quality, to a point). I pretty much have my puck prep down to a science... it's the equipment that needs attention now.
An obsessive deep dive ensued: I went from an initial interest in E61 HXs to certainty that what I needed was an E61 DB with a rotary pump. But, as my budget began to balloon, I eventually realized that what I was really looking for was a lever machine of some sort. I confess, the Nurri L-Type is the one that really appeals to me, and I'm delighted to see that I could now purchase one from Clive when I'm ready. But while I'm waiting to save the $5500 I'll need to realize that dream, I've also begun to think I could be very happy to play for a while with a fully manual lever machine (direct or spring lever is OK by me...) at a much more reasonable cost. I like to tinker, I'm a hands-on, DIY kind of guy (perhaps less than some, but more than most). I like the idea of the tactile experience and the manual feedback, all thermal stability issues aside... even if, truth be told, those issues are also a genuine concern.
If it helps to know, I'm consuming about two double shots and two milkies per day (cappuccinos/flat whites), and more when my girlfriend sleeps over... My Bambino Plus just can't do light roasts, period, so it's mostly medium over here (acquired from local, bespoke roasters here in L.A. and beyond); if I could profile, I'd certainly get into lighter roasts. But generally, I tend to like the mediums (and perhaps not so much the darks or the ultra-traditional roasts).
So, here's the dilemma I face now:
Do I hold out for the second production run of the Argos, which truly seems to be an awesome little machine that marries temp stability and the tactile experience with some very useful modern tech? Do I buy myself a La Pavoni Professional right now... though not just any old one off eBay, but rather one of Tudor's fully upgraded and kitted out versions over at Coffee Sensor? (A confession: I like the sleek modern looks of the Argos way more than the shiny chromed steampunk design of the LP, but that's a personal thing...). Or do I nab that 1977 Olympia Cremina I found that's selling for around $1600, with no real sense of what condition it's in and how much service it will need to do its job (plus... the asbestos...)? Or maybe I wait for the Londinium Vectis to hit the market? I've also eyed the Ponte Vecchio Lusso, which intrigues but also leaves me skeptical as to quality (and also appears to be discontinued in the US market). The PV Export: no so much. The Elektra Microcasa a Leva: it's just way to shiny and ornate for my tastes, regardless of the quality of its espressos and micro-foam... what can I say? I will say, the Streitman CT2 looks pretty sweet for just espresso (I could keep the Bambino as a milk steamer), but at that price, I feel like I might as well hold out for the Nurri or similar.
I should also add that I'm not opposed to other options I may be missing, even vintage professional levers like the Conti Prestina... but there's where my lack of knowledge comes into play, so I'd need some specific guidance for those.
With apologies for this long-winded introduction, I'd be super grateful for any and all thoughts and suggestions!
Thanks!
I'm an avid reader of many of the forums here, but posting for the first time as we speak.
I've caught the manual lever bug... badly... and would be grateful for some guidance from the community.
I suppose some background is in order first: just last December, with no prior home barista experience, I bought myself a Breville Bambino Plus on a whim (I see all your eyes rolling; bear with me), along with a bottomless portafilter and an IMS 18g precision basket. Within weeks, two things became clear: (1) there had been an espresso fanatic hiding inside me that had just been unleashed; (2) the Bambino Plus had already proven itself a woefully inadequate tool for my new habit... even after the purchase of a digital scale and my Niche Zero (which certainly improved quality, to a point). I pretty much have my puck prep down to a science... it's the equipment that needs attention now.
An obsessive deep dive ensued: I went from an initial interest in E61 HXs to certainty that what I needed was an E61 DB with a rotary pump. But, as my budget began to balloon, I eventually realized that what I was really looking for was a lever machine of some sort. I confess, the Nurri L-Type is the one that really appeals to me, and I'm delighted to see that I could now purchase one from Clive when I'm ready. But while I'm waiting to save the $5500 I'll need to realize that dream, I've also begun to think I could be very happy to play for a while with a fully manual lever machine (direct or spring lever is OK by me...) at a much more reasonable cost. I like to tinker, I'm a hands-on, DIY kind of guy (perhaps less than some, but more than most). I like the idea of the tactile experience and the manual feedback, all thermal stability issues aside... even if, truth be told, those issues are also a genuine concern.
If it helps to know, I'm consuming about two double shots and two milkies per day (cappuccinos/flat whites), and more when my girlfriend sleeps over... My Bambino Plus just can't do light roasts, period, so it's mostly medium over here (acquired from local, bespoke roasters here in L.A. and beyond); if I could profile, I'd certainly get into lighter roasts. But generally, I tend to like the mediums (and perhaps not so much the darks or the ultra-traditional roasts).
So, here's the dilemma I face now:
Do I hold out for the second production run of the Argos, which truly seems to be an awesome little machine that marries temp stability and the tactile experience with some very useful modern tech? Do I buy myself a La Pavoni Professional right now... though not just any old one off eBay, but rather one of Tudor's fully upgraded and kitted out versions over at Coffee Sensor? (A confession: I like the sleek modern looks of the Argos way more than the shiny chromed steampunk design of the LP, but that's a personal thing...). Or do I nab that 1977 Olympia Cremina I found that's selling for around $1600, with no real sense of what condition it's in and how much service it will need to do its job (plus... the asbestos...)? Or maybe I wait for the Londinium Vectis to hit the market? I've also eyed the Ponte Vecchio Lusso, which intrigues but also leaves me skeptical as to quality (and also appears to be discontinued in the US market). The PV Export: no so much. The Elektra Microcasa a Leva: it's just way to shiny and ornate for my tastes, regardless of the quality of its espressos and micro-foam... what can I say? I will say, the Streitman CT2 looks pretty sweet for just espresso (I could keep the Bambino as a milk steamer), but at that price, I feel like I might as well hold out for the Nurri or similar.
I should also add that I'm not opposed to other options I may be missing, even vintage professional levers like the Conti Prestina... but there's where my lack of knowledge comes into play, so I'd need some specific guidance for those.
With apologies for this long-winded introduction, I'd be super grateful for any and all thoughts and suggestions!
Thanks!
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Jeff
- Team HB
If you're looking for a manual lever, I'd go for a Flair 58 or Robot over a La Pavoni. For me, the La Pavoni was too finicky about too many things compared to how easy the Robot is to use. The vintage Arrarex VAM / Caravel machines are delightful, as long as you enjoy classic-sized shots (7-ish g of grinds). Being an open boiler, the temperature management is, for me, easier to deal with than the La Pavoni. Among manual levers, Creminas have a huge following. If they appeal to you, they are solid machines and seem to hold their value well. Streitman makes a stunning manual lever. Machines without a steam wand could be complemented by your Bambino used for steaming.
I think the Argos and the Vectis both have the potential to be great choices. Both are still "potential" as they aren't in widespread use yet. The Argos gives you the option to set it up as a spring-driven or manual machine. I haven't followed the Vectis too closely.
You can also keep your eyes open for a used but reasonably modern machine, like a Profitec 800, Quick Mill Achille, or the like.
I think the Argos and the Vectis both have the potential to be great choices. Both are still "potential" as they aren't in widespread use yet. The Argos gives you the option to set it up as a spring-driven or manual machine. I haven't followed the Vectis too closely.
You can also keep your eyes open for a used but reasonably modern machine, like a Profitec 800, Quick Mill Achille, or the like.
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Primacog
For me, I have always just gotten the machine that I had my heart set on rather than compromising due to price etc. And that has worked out satisfactorily for me so far.Accidemic627 wrote:Hello home-baristas,
I'm an avid reader of many of the forums here, but posting for the first time as we speak.
I've caught the manual lever bug... badly... and would be grateful for some guidance from the community.
I suppose some background is in order first: just last December, with no prior home barista experience, I bought myself a Breville Bambino Plus on a whim (I see all your eyes rolling; bear with me), along with a bottomless portafilter and an IMS 18g precision basket. Within weeks, two things became clear: (1) there had been an espresso fanatic hiding inside me that had just been unleashed; (2) the Bambino Plus had already proven itself a woefully inadequate tool for my new habit... even after the purchase of a digital scale and my Niche Zero (which certainly improved quality, to a point). I pretty much have my puck prep down to a science... it's the equipment that needs attention now.
An obsessive deep dive ensued: I went from an initial interest in E61 HXs to certainty that what I needed was an E61 DB with a rotary pump. But, as my budget began to balloon, I eventually realized that what I was really looking for was a lever machine of some sort. I confess, the Nurri L-Type is the one that really appeals to me, and I'm delighted to see that I could now purchase one from Clive when I'm ready. But while I'm waiting to save the $5500 I'll need to realize that dream, I've also begun to think I could be very happy to play for a while with a fully manual lever machine (direct or spring lever is OK by me...) at a much more reasonable cost. I like to tinker, I'm a hands-on, DIY kind of guy (perhaps less than some, but more than most). I like the idea of the tactile experience and the manual feedback, all thermal stability issues aside... even if, truth be told, those issues are also a genuine concern.
If it helps to know, I'm consuming about two double shots and two milkies per day (cappuccinos/flat whites), and more when my girlfriend sleeps over... My Bambino Plus just can't do light roasts, period, so it's mostly medium over here (acquired from local, bespoke roasters here in L.A. and beyond); if I could profile, I'd certainly get into lighter roasts. But generally, I tend to like the mediums (and perhaps not so much the darks or the ultra-traditional roasts).
So, here's the dilemma I face now:
Do I hold out for the second production run of the Argos, which truly seems to be an awesome little machine that marries temp stability and the tactile experience with some very useful modern tech? Do I buy myself a La Pavoni Professional right now... though not just any old one off eBay, but rather one of Tudor's fully upgraded and kitted out versions over at Coffee Sensor? (A confession: I like the sleek modern looks of the Argos way more than the shiny chromed steampunk design of the LP, but that's a personal thing...). Or do I nab that 1977 Olympia Cremina I found that's selling for around $1600, with no real sense of what condition it's in and how much service it will need to do its job (plus... the asbestos...)? Or maybe I wait for the Londinium Vectis to hit the market? I've also eyed the Ponte Vecchio Lusso, which intrigues but also leaves me skeptical as to quality (and also appears to be discontinued in the US market). The PV Export: no so much. The Elektra Microcasa a Leva: it's just way to shiny and ornate for my tastes, regardless of the quality of its espressos and micro-foam... what can I say? I will say, the Streitman CT2 looks pretty sweet for just espresso (I could keep the Bambino as a milk steamer), but at that price, I feel like I might as well hold out for the Nurri or similar.
I should also add that I'm not opposed to other options I may be missing, even vintage professional levers like the Conti Prestina... but there's where my lack of knowledge comes into play, so I'd need some specific guidance for those.
With apologies for this long-winded introduction, I'd be super grateful for any and all thoughts and suggestions!
Thanks!
I started with an oscar but soon got the upgrade bug and at the time the vbm e61 double boiler with pid was considered the top home machine. I certainly liked the idea of the pid and liked the looks so I went for it. Liked it a lot.
Then I got I intrigued by levers and read a lot on it. I later got the chance to buy a new izzo pompei and really liked its looks and robustness and commercial level power and quality not to mention its authentic neopolitan look and feel. Despite its rather high cost at the time for me, I dived in and it made me a leverhead ever since. Had more thna a decade using it on almost a daily basis and never had my head turned by another machine - until I saw a video of the Nurri L-type SA lever in white and zebra wood panels.
It had the same 54mm LSM grouphead and so I knew its coffee was to my taste but on top of that it had double boilers so I didn't need to wait 45 mins for heating up. Better yet it had ndependent temp control for all three main components and so I don't have to do endless flushing to achieve higher tmperature in the grouphead. Instead I could set the desired temp and wait a few minutes and it was rock solid stable at that temp. Further more the use of the paddles enabled a intuitive worflow and operation.
Not the least of all - the nurri looked like the best looking espresso machine I had ever seen. So even thought he price was quite a bit higher than I had ever contemplated to buy a espresso machine I dived right in and got one. No regrets whatsoever and it has made my daily espresso and milk drinks experience to be on another level compared even to my previous machine the izzo. So if I were you- just go and get the machine that your heart is set on!
LMWDP #729
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mathof
If price is a consideration, I'd wait a little longer to see the early reviews of the Vectis, which is just about to be released. And the Argos too, if it comes out soon.
If price is flexible, Nurri and ACS both have lever machines out now, which their users report enjoying.
If price is flexible, Nurri and ACS both have lever machines out now, which their users report enjoying.
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Amberale
In your shoes, I would wait for the Argos.
While I was waiting I would actively search for a Caravel.
While I was waiting I would actively search for a Caravel.
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bgnome
I've got an Argos on preorder. An issue I could see with the Carvel / VAM is that they are usually 220V, which requires a bit of a workaround for practical use.
I also have a Zacconi and a Sama Export, with each having their own style and intricacies.
My best guess is that at least a few of the Argos orders in the first group will go up for sale shortly for those who would like to make a quick buck. I've already seen at least 1 try to scalp a preorder. In the meantime, just get any machine you like and easily sell it on if you find something that suits you better.
I also have a Zacconi and a Sama Export, with each having their own style and intricacies.
My best guess is that at least a few of the Argos orders in the first group will go up for sale shortly for those who would like to make a quick buck. I've already seen at least 1 try to scalp a preorder. In the meantime, just get any machine you like and easily sell it on if you find something that suits you better.
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Accidemic627 (original poster)
Wow!
Thanks, everyone, for these super helpful responses.
I think the general idea I'm taking away so far is that I should hold out for what I want, cost and time be damned. I'm generally on board with that view... but still, I want to tide myself over in the meanwhile and gain some experience pulling shots on a lever machine.
Primacog: I'm basically in complete agreement with you about the Nurri (I've read a lot of your thoughts on that machine here over the past months, so I know you're a booster). And I wouldn't get something like a Strega or an 800 or an Izzo in the meantime because, well, once you're dropping that much cash, why not just go all the way and get what you want? So, when I have the $6000, I'll pull the Nurri trigger... but that's going to take a good while.
I've checked out the ACS Vostok: that thing's a beast! I don't have room for it, even if I wanted it. But I don't; I prefer the Nurri with the servo paddles.
Jeff: I have definitely explored the Flair 58 and I find it compelling. I also find the Streitman C2 compelling... but 5x the cost more compelling? And I suppose either of these could work if I just keep the Bambino to steam milk for my caps... but...
Actually: what are folks' thoughts on the Streitman? Any boosters out there?
Instinctively, I feel I want something with a larger, sealed boiler, if not for steaming milk, then at least to be able to pull more than one shot at a time. This would seem to rule out the Caravel's too, as open boiler machines. I've seen some on eBay. They're really vintage: everything I see is from the 50s-60s and "as-is" from sellers who haven't tested them and don't seem to know much about them.
That said, the jury is out on this count: what makes the open boiler concept a better way to go?
Amberale, Jeff: why do you recommend the Caravel "while I wait"? What are the latest model years of those? Any generation/model in particular I should look out for? I think I may agree with bgnome, though: perhaps not the most practical solution, all things considered?.
I guess if we're talking just very simple, used lever machines with boilers, then probably the Cremina seems like the best option, but price-wise, it might not quite fall into the "tide me over" category. (Plus, used Creminas appear to be really scarce out there right now...). Besides Cerini (which has nothing used available right now) and eBay, do any of you know of where to look for used Cremina's these days?
Pound for pound, and judging by many of your responses so far, it's the Argos or the Vectis that I should wait for. I'm on both their mailing lists. I'm waiting to hear when batch 2 of the Argos goes on pre-order. Do any of you have any intel on the timeline for either of those machines? Both seem really intriguing; I'm drawn more to the Argos for its modularity (and its looks), but I could be persuaded otherwise. Do any of you (mathof, Amberale, bgnome, others) have thoughts on why the one or the other--the Argos or the Vectis--would be better?
Finally: so am I to gather from all of you that everyone is pretty much against the La Pavoni's altogether? Do any of you have thoughts on all the mods available from Coffee Sensor that seem to address many of the more temperamental issues with those machines? And in terms of build quality and user experience, how would a La Pavoni Professional (or an Argos or a Vectis, for that matter) compare with a Zacconi Riviera or the PV Export? Or the PV Lusso, which no one has mentioned yet...
Thanks again everyone for all the help!
Thanks, everyone, for these super helpful responses.
I think the general idea I'm taking away so far is that I should hold out for what I want, cost and time be damned. I'm generally on board with that view... but still, I want to tide myself over in the meanwhile and gain some experience pulling shots on a lever machine.
Primacog: I'm basically in complete agreement with you about the Nurri (I've read a lot of your thoughts on that machine here over the past months, so I know you're a booster). And I wouldn't get something like a Strega or an 800 or an Izzo in the meantime because, well, once you're dropping that much cash, why not just go all the way and get what you want? So, when I have the $6000, I'll pull the Nurri trigger... but that's going to take a good while.
I've checked out the ACS Vostok: that thing's a beast! I don't have room for it, even if I wanted it. But I don't; I prefer the Nurri with the servo paddles.
Jeff: I have definitely explored the Flair 58 and I find it compelling. I also find the Streitman C2 compelling... but 5x the cost more compelling? And I suppose either of these could work if I just keep the Bambino to steam milk for my caps... but...
Actually: what are folks' thoughts on the Streitman? Any boosters out there?
Instinctively, I feel I want something with a larger, sealed boiler, if not for steaming milk, then at least to be able to pull more than one shot at a time. This would seem to rule out the Caravel's too, as open boiler machines. I've seen some on eBay. They're really vintage: everything I see is from the 50s-60s and "as-is" from sellers who haven't tested them and don't seem to know much about them.
That said, the jury is out on this count: what makes the open boiler concept a better way to go?
Amberale, Jeff: why do you recommend the Caravel "while I wait"? What are the latest model years of those? Any generation/model in particular I should look out for? I think I may agree with bgnome, though: perhaps not the most practical solution, all things considered?.
I guess if we're talking just very simple, used lever machines with boilers, then probably the Cremina seems like the best option, but price-wise, it might not quite fall into the "tide me over" category. (Plus, used Creminas appear to be really scarce out there right now...). Besides Cerini (which has nothing used available right now) and eBay, do any of you know of where to look for used Cremina's these days?
Pound for pound, and judging by many of your responses so far, it's the Argos or the Vectis that I should wait for. I'm on both their mailing lists. I'm waiting to hear when batch 2 of the Argos goes on pre-order. Do any of you have any intel on the timeline for either of those machines? Both seem really intriguing; I'm drawn more to the Argos for its modularity (and its looks), but I could be persuaded otherwise. Do any of you (mathof, Amberale, bgnome, others) have thoughts on why the one or the other--the Argos or the Vectis--would be better?
Finally: so am I to gather from all of you that everyone is pretty much against the La Pavoni's altogether? Do any of you have thoughts on all the mods available from Coffee Sensor that seem to address many of the more temperamental issues with those machines? And in terms of build quality and user experience, how would a La Pavoni Professional (or an Argos or a Vectis, for that matter) compare with a Zacconi Riviera or the PV Export? Or the PV Lusso, which no one has mentioned yet...
Thanks again everyone for all the help!
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guijan12
The LPP is my daily driver.
And with the Bong isolator and pressure kit, even the back to back shots from a La Pavoni are unbeatable in quality.
A steep learning curve though, and it is not a very good milk foamer (though with the one hole tip, the quality of the foam is good, it only takes time....).
Since you also consume milk drinks, this is doable with an LPP, not with the Rock or Flair 58.
Welcome at the forum, btw
And with the Bong isolator and pressure kit, even the back to back shots from a La Pavoni are unbeatable in quality.
A steep learning curve though, and it is not a very good milk foamer (though with the one hole tip, the quality of the foam is good, it only takes time....).
Since you also consume milk drinks, this is doable with an LPP, not with the Rock or Flair 58.
Welcome at the forum, btw
Regards,
Guido
Guido
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Jeff
- Team HB
I find the VAM and early Caravel models (1.x) to be better constructed than the 2.x and later models. They're all about the same in the cup, so it comes down to what you can find available (these are around 50-70 years old) and how much work you're willing to do on it. Francesco' site covers it well and I've had good luck with his refurbished machines. http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/m_arrarex_eng.htm
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Accidemic627 (original poster)
Thanks for the link to Francesco's site, Jeff, very cool!
Interestingly enough, there are three VAM Caravels up for bids on eBay right now. One of these--which, judging by Francesco's site, is a v.1.0--looks to be in quite good condition and can be bought straight away, no bidding, for 400 Euros plus 80 Euros shipping to the U.S. from Italy. Obviously, this would require a step up/down converter... maybe $100 bucks on Amazon.
Checked out some videos of people actually pulling shots on these: looks like some like to rig them up with a PID too.
So maybe another $40-60? Not necessary, I realize, but maybe worth the extra cost for some sense of temperature stability?
Of course, Francesco clearly sells a lot of these from his website (for less money, actually), and it looks like with him at least I know I'd getting a ser
OK, so, hypothetically, let's say one goes this route and gets a functioning VAM v1.0 Caravel, circa 1950s, for about $675-700, give or take. Now I have a 70+ year old, open boiler espresso machine, no steaming (not a deal breaker), no pressure gauge... along with many unanswered questions: portafilter size? parts availability? ease of maintenance? does the thing I bought off eBay even work?
For all that, supposing it does work, or I can get it to work, my question is: what does this Caravel give me in the cup that, say a LPP or Europiccola doesn't, ... and will I get better results in the cup by spending more money, whether on a used Cremina, or a new Argos or Vectis?
And then there's the Strietman C2... which is a huge bundle of cash, but looks essentially to be the same concept as the Caravel...
By the way, while we're on the topic of vintage levers: what about the Faema Faemina? Several of those for sale from Francesco too, and one I found on eBay...
Interestingly enough, there are three VAM Caravels up for bids on eBay right now. One of these--which, judging by Francesco's site, is a v.1.0--looks to be in quite good condition and can be bought straight away, no bidding, for 400 Euros plus 80 Euros shipping to the U.S. from Italy. Obviously, this would require a step up/down converter... maybe $100 bucks on Amazon.
Checked out some videos of people actually pulling shots on these: looks like some like to rig them up with a PID too.
So maybe another $40-60? Not necessary, I realize, but maybe worth the extra cost for some sense of temperature stability?
Of course, Francesco clearly sells a lot of these from his website (for less money, actually), and it looks like with him at least I know I'd getting a ser
OK, so, hypothetically, let's say one goes this route and gets a functioning VAM v1.0 Caravel, circa 1950s, for about $675-700, give or take. Now I have a 70+ year old, open boiler espresso machine, no steaming (not a deal breaker), no pressure gauge... along with many unanswered questions: portafilter size? parts availability? ease of maintenance? does the thing I bought off eBay even work?
For all that, supposing it does work, or I can get it to work, my question is: what does this Caravel give me in the cup that, say a LPP or Europiccola doesn't, ... and will I get better results in the cup by spending more money, whether on a used Cremina, or a new Argos or Vectis?
And then there's the Strietman C2... which is a huge bundle of cash, but looks essentially to be the same concept as the Caravel...
By the way, while we're on the topic of vintage levers: what about the Faema Faemina? Several of those for sale from Francesco too, and one I found on eBay...
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