mathof wrote:I was wondering why you got fed up with the Cremina. Did it too have design issues?

To my memory, the Cremina suffers from a lot of the same temp management, shot volume, and piston design issues as the La Pavoni, but benefits from the enclosed boiler and better build quality. From a workflow and espresso in the cup perspective I see no reason to own a Cremina instead of a Strietman unless you need steaming, especially considering the comparable cost of the two machines.

RyanP-thanks for your insights on spring vs. direct lever, much appreciated and very helpful. Having never used either kind of lever, it's difficult to know which would suit me best. Both would represent distinct benefits and drawbacks for me personally, I suspect. The direct lever interests me for the amount of control it provides when pulling a shot; the spring interests me for the consistency it offers when pulling a shot...

So probably, my decision will come down to what I find for the best deal, whether spring or direct... and that will become my baseline.

I also appreciate your thoughts on the Cremina. Honestly, used Cremina's are so hard to come by these days, and cost so much even used (regardless of condition, it seems), that I just don't see the point when the Vectis is right around the corner (I know, I know, it's a spring lever, not a direct lever, but it's clearly competing with the Cremina in terms of size, build, etc)... or the Argos, for that matter, which, as others have noted, is quite a lot further away in the offing, giving all their current production snags. (The appeal of the Argos is that I could use it as a direct lever and add a spring later, or vice versa, if I've understood the design correctly).

The Nurri and the ACS both appeal to me, to be sure (as I mentioned in my original post, the Nurri is really my dream machine and that hasn't changed since the beginning of this thread... but it's $5500 at Clive, a sum of money I'm not able to spend just yet).

The Strietman is an absolutely beautiful machine, I could certainly be swayed in that direction, thought it's also quite pricey. More than a Vectis, even, and the latter will have steam power and, according to Reiss, admirable temp stability due to the beefy group (if we're to take him at his word). Were I to go with the Strietman, I guess I'd keep my Bambino to steam milk for the couple of cappuccinos I drink every day... though, truth be told, it would be great to just get rid of the Bambino altogether... it's just such a chintzy, cheap feeling and wholly unsatisfying contraption to use.

Accidemic627 wrote:So probably, my decision will come down to what I find for the best deal, whether spring or direct... and that will become my baseline.

Warning -- whatever you choose, you will end up with the other as well

Touché, Jeff!

Man... I really do have to start saving my beans!

Accidemic627 wrote:RyanP-thanks for your insights on spring vs. direct lever, much appreciated and very helpful. Having never used either kind of lever, it's difficult to know which would suit me best. Both would represent distinct benefits and drawbacks for me personally, I suspect. The direct lever interests me for the amount of control it provides when pulling a shot; the spring interests me for the consistency it offers when pulling a shot...

Just my experience.... I started (in 1999) with a manual lever (LP Europiccola, 2nd gen), which I never mastered: how hard you pull the lever is a function of how fine you grind, but how fine you grind is a function of how hard you decide to pull the lever. In those days, there were no piston pressure dial kits to track your efforts.
Life became much simpler when (in 2014) I bought a spring lever. And my espressos became much better. Now, curiously, when I use my old LP, I find I am able to pull excellent shots with it. I seem to have learned what I need to do on the manual machine from my experience with the spring lever.
Conclusion: if I were you, I'd start with a spring lever.

I started with a La Peppina spring lever / open boiler hooked up to a PID and found that with all the pre-reading from H-B on this machine was pretty easy to use. I had to learn some new techniques when I added a Gaggia Factory (La Pavoni with a Tin Man design aesthetic), but it wasn't that hard an adjustment so starting with a spring lever probably helped me too. With the La Peppina I had played with helping the spring with my arm when I wanted more body / pressure. Now I use my Robot and have been very happy there, especially since I only occasionally make espresso and it's easy to put the Robot away when I'm done to free up counter space.

The La Peppina took a bit of work to refurb/rebuild before I started using it, though.

Jeff wrote:... I'd go for a Flair 58 or Robot ...

The first response which you received is still the best advice IMO.

Or maybe have a look at the Jian Yi (or Chinese Strietman as it is called sometimes), more difficult to get your hands on but extreme value.

baldheadracing wrote:The first response which you received is still the best advice IMO.

I hear you... and yet, for whatever reason, neither of those options appeal to me. If I were to choose one, it would be the Flair hands down... just don't like the ergonomics of the Robot. But frankly, as Primacog suggested way at the outset of this thread, sometimes it makes sense just to go big from the get go (he was talking about just going straight for the Nurri, but that's jus not going to happen short term, budget wise)... so in theory if I were to get an espresso only lever machine, maybe it would just have to be the Strietman (with all due respect to the "Chinese Strietman", I appreciate the tip, but to me it looks, well, cheap...).

But the fact of the matter is, while the espresso is what counts, I do also like my cappuccinos, so I want to be able to steam, and in the best of scenarios I'd get rid of the bambino and have one machine that can do both.

So right now, I'm finding myself drawn more and more towards the Vectis. If I thought the Argos were closer on the horizon I'd be tempted to hold out, but it looks like Ross and team still have some kinks to work out, so I want to wait and see what happens there.

Would I like to get a Lambro or a Prestina? Sure. But as far as I can tell, I could be waiting till Kingdom come for one of those to drop somewhere. So in deference to the reality that whatever "interim" machine I get will most likely remain on my bench when I get something else down the line, that Vectis, all things considered, seems like it could be a fairly satisfying solution...

That's where I'm at today. Tomorrow? We'll see...

While my crystal ball is as imperfect as anyone's, you may be underestimating the progress made by the Argos compared to the Vectis. If you decide to reexamine, I'd consider the amount and detail of communication in both cases. One thing I don't know (on either machine) is how long it will take to get through the preorders and to get "your" machine ordered and fulfilled.