Help a lever newbie out? La Pavoni Pro? Wait for an Argos? A Vectis? Or, or...? - Page 4

#31: Post by **baldheadracing** » May 29th, 2023, 10:02 am

mipe wrote:... I prefer light (Scandinavian) roast. In my experience many of the espresso machine are not made for light roast (higher brew temperature).

On E61 HX I could set higher temperature but by increasing the boiler pressure through pressurestat. But then the steam was too powerful especially for smaller amounts of milk. And don't get me started on temperature surfing.
...
So, what would be your recommendation as small lever that will be suitable for light roast as much as possible without doing some special preheating routine like temperature surfing, flush ...

IMO, no such machine is currently available.

Your requirements dictate that the machine must either:
- have separate boilers and/or heating mechanisms for steaming and brewing, which is not a small machine; or
- have a retuned thermosyphon and/or heat exchanger, which are non-trivial modifications; or
- change your workflow to do the steaming before or after brewing like a SBDU machine or a vintage two-switch home lever machine like the Faemina or 1st-gen Europiccola mentioned above. However, a vintage two-switch lever is the definition of needing special routines - for everything

.

While my favourite machine for pulling very-light filter roasts is a vintage Elektra MCaL (Micro Casa a Leva) with the old-style soft spring, I do have the pressurestat set a little higher than default. I don't mind the greater steaming power, though.

ETA: I am not considering the opposite practice - of brewing and/or pulling very light filter roasts at low temperatures. I haven't tried that (yet).

YMMV.

#32: Post by **drgary** » May 29th, 2023, 10:47 am

baldheadracing wrote:The pics of that machine show a European plug and mains cord.

The English side has the "For Sale" link - the Italian side does not.

Sometimes Francesco will swap heating elements. His listing for the version 1.6 Europiccola is a bit confusing because he's showing a 220v machine, heating element and plug but the detailed listing for that machine also mentions 110v. Maybe that's a typo. The machine is fitted with a flange that allows swapping of heating elements. Changing out the power cord and plug can be done easily too.

May 29th, 2023, 11:07 am

True, he did it for me - the listing for mine said that 120v was available. I don't know why only the odd listing has offered that option.

No harm in asking

.

#34: Post by **Jeff** » May 29th, 2023, 11:51 am

To add to Craig's comments, another challenge you will face with small levers is traditional shot volumes. Most of these machines were designed for a style of espresso with a 1:1 to 1:2 ratio.

Unless you've got a high-extraction burr set (64MP, 98HU, probably some Kafatek), you will probably need to be pulling shots in the 1:2.5 to 1:3 range to get reasonable balance for anything around Tim Wendelboe and lighter. A double-pull technique may work, but you risk disturbing the puck. It's a bit of faff that sounds like what you're trying to avoid. The Argos may prove itself viable for Nordic and lighter roasts. I believe the claimed shot volume is 50 g or more, which at least gets you over 1:2.5.

May 29th, 2023, 3:25 pm

Hi all,

Amazing the evolution just over the course of this conversation. So long as I can plug into a step-up/step-down converter, I don't think the 220 v 110 is a huge deal. Or I see if he can swap out cord and plugs and se it up as a 110.

I'm now really compelled by either the early LPs (the 1971 model on Francesco's site) or one of the Faeminas from Francesco. If he had a Caravel, I'd go for it, so maybe I hold out a bit and keep an eye peeled. My sense from many of you is that you'd take a Faemina over an LPP... but perhaps that's just a subjective preference? Not entirely unanimous, obviously.

As for ratios: right now what I've been doing on my Bambino with medium roasts is 16g in 32g out, which seems good to me and certainly within the capabilities of my Niche Zero (won't be upgrading my grinder right away; I'm happy with the NZ).

I think I'm going to try to contact Francesco directly and pick his brain a bit, see what he actually has on sale (I see the Faeminas and the LPEs, the 1971 looks to me like a Professional not an Europiccola: bigger boiler with pressure gauge...)

#36: Post by **drgary** » May 29th, 2023, 5:02 pm

LP Professionals started with 2nd gen groups. The sight glass manometer is an easy upgrade to that 1.6 version.

May 30th, 2023, 1:48 am

Jeff wrote:Most of these machines were designed for a style of espresso with a 1:1 to 1:2 ratio.

I can't help but think that this can't be right?

From what I've learned, the original espresso in Italy was around 14g double. So perhaps all these old levers were actually designed for 14:40 or something like that - close to a 1:3 ratio.

.. and we just think about 1:2 because we put our modern 18-20g baskets on and get 40g of liquid at the most.

May 30th, 2023, 2:10 am

espressotime wrote:Yes.Ponte Vecchio Export.
Next to my Lambro.

image

It' s a great little espressomachine.
Positives: Very narrow base .6 inches.
Takes 10 minutes starting from cold to make an espresso.Great espresso quality.Very good steamer.Cheap.I bought mine secondhand for 350 euros.Almost new.
Negatives: Not suited for making two espressos with one load.Just not happening.Needs fellini move.(But that to me is a non- issue).

Hi espressotime, couple quick questions:
- First, do you have recommendations as to where to be looking for a Lambro (or similar, i.e. Prestina) for sale?
- Second: how does your usage of each machine compare, Export vs Lambro? That is, which do you use when? What makes you choose the Export over the Lambro or vice versa on any given day?
Thanks!
GD

May 30th, 2023, 3:12 am

I bought mine at https://www.vintage-espresso-machines.nl/
Both make great espresso.The Export is very fast.Takes 10 minutes to be ready and pull some shots.
I use the Export for the last shot of the day.The Lambro is used during the morning and stays on for a couple of hours.

#40: Post by **baldheadracing** » May 30th, 2023, 9:04 am

Jonastheorganist wrote:I can't help but think that this can't be right?

From what I've learned, the original espresso in Italy was around 14g double. So perhaps all these old levers were actually designed for 14:40 or something like that - close to a 1:3 ratio.

.. and we just think about 1:2 because we put our modern 18-20g baskets on and get 40g of liquid at the most.

7g:25ml is the classic Italian bar single. These are 1950's machines and 1950's Italian coffee was cheap due to the economic conditions then. Robusta and low-grown Brazilian Arabica give huge crema, so 25ml may only have a mass of 12g; maybe 16g tops - so around 1:2 as a mass ratio.

These vintage home machines were developed with that in mind; doubles typically using 12g-14g of coffee in the basket with around 20g-24g out for the first pull. For more coffee one must Fellini - Fellini's are even specified in the manuals if one wants more volume. However, Fellini's are not that tasty with modern specialty-grade coffee roasted medium-light and lighter as those coffees don't have the puck integrity of darker cheap coffee blends.

There are modern baskets that can take a bit more coffee; IMS introduced a deep basket for Pavoni's a couple years ago that could even take 18g, but it doesn't fit a stock portafilter. Before that the Elektra MCaL double basket was recommended for people wanting more a larger dose; but note that the MCaL has a larger (effective) group than these Faemina's or Europiccolas.