Hello all. Total beginner here, as in "I've never pulled a shot in my life" beginner. I started roasting my own beans a few months ago and now own a wide range of brewing toys and am ready to dive into espresso. After a couple months of googling around, I think I'm ready to make a purchase. After reading the rave reviews and relative affordability, I'm pretty set on the Niche Zero for the grinder. As far as the machine, I'm looking at three, all on very different points of the price spectrum. Would greatly appreciate some help on deciding between the three:

1. LM Linea Mini - honestly, it was a top sport athlete who I'm a fan of that got me wanting to dive into espresso after he had posted a picture pulling a shot from a LM GS3. The LMLM is about as much as I'm willing to spend, but my wallet will be much happier if I can get that same taste for cheaper. One thing that I have read from a few home baristas is that if they could go back and do it all over again from the beginning, they would have just started big from the get-go rather than start small and experience constant upgrade-itis.

2. La Spaziale Lucca A53/Vivaldi II - a coworker recommended this as he had recently purchased it. After watching a LMLM comparison video from Clive Coffee, this machine seems to be marketed as being a LMLM-level machine when producing single (and not back to back) drinks, which is all my machine will be used for. Not only is it much cheaper, but with the hardwood upgrade, I'm a big fan of the aesthetics. One concern that I have is that this machine doesn't seem to get the glowing reviews on these forums that the other 2 machines I'm considering have. The Vivaldi II never seems to be the answer to any "what machine should I get" question around here! Why is that? I was pretty set on this machine before diving into this forum.

3. Breville Dual Boiler - I've only become interested in this machine because of the glowing reviews on these forums, especially since the Amazon user reviews were only so-so, particularly with regard to durability. If you guys are telling me I can get top-tier taste at 1/5 the price, then I'm all ears! However, if the LMLM will last 5x longer, then i suppose it might be a wash.

One thing that constantly comes to mind when I debate between these machines is a youtube video I watched a while back from Seattle Coffee Gear. It was a blind taste test of espresso from two machines (don't remember which, but one was very expensive and one very cheap). The tester could not tell the difference - she did match up the shot to machine correctly, but admitted that it was mostly a guess. What would you guys say - can a BDB produce shots that are on par with the LMLM?

Another thing I consider is that with me being so new, I really don't know what capabilities a LMLM would have over the BDB. I see terms discussed around here that are still foreign to me (flow profiling, preinfusion, etc.), so these things really aren't important to me right now. But will they be in the future? I don't know..Right now I'm only thinking about final taste and not necessarily how I got there (not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly).

Should I start smaller or just go big?

Thank you all for the help!

Personally I would go big. The lmlm is a great machine. I used it a couple of times and i was impressed. Was about to purchase it also as my first machine but i managed to get more money together for a gs3. I am all about the looks of the machine too and I find the gs3 more "sexy" vs the box look of the lmlm and I imagined myself waking up to the gs3 and to this very day it is what gets me out of bed! Making them awesome lattes in the morning with my baby.

Don't mind the whole flow profiling or preinfusion thing! I believe it just complicates things and maybe later on i would dive into the rabbit hole but right now(1 year into home espresso and about to open my cafe) I am still not down to learn about stuff like that. I am getting awesome espresso right now too so i don't mind.

My path was a Vivaldi S1 (your Luca is just a rebranded Spaziale) and Fiorenzato F4. I ran a dedicated 20 am line and plumbed her in. Bought al the accessories blah blah blah. Long story short, 20 pounds of good coffee, lots of work, lots of frustration, and lots of money I could not pull a decent shot to save my life. All my milk based drinks were terrible. My wife was like WTF. I ended up sending it all back thinking I just couldn't make espresso and eating all the coast of shipping, coffee, plumbing, electrical, and accessories. I tried weight in weight out, time, help from forum members via video blah blah blah. (Best guess was machine was faulty and my vendor didn't care. I'm guessing temp offset was waaaayyyyyy off. At the time I had no clue about the boiling water out of the group head test).

3 months later I talk the wife into buying a Breville Barista express from Bed Bath Beyon using 20% off coupon. I planned on bring it home trying a couple drinks falling then returning it. First drink was delicious. This got me right back into espresso. The machine had its limitations, especially the grinder, but it taught me a lot. You had to use volume to compensate for lack of grind sized adjustability. Changing the taste through grinding, overdosing, under-dosing really helped me get ready for my current set up. That machine also really taught me milk steaming. It is so slow you can really learn when to stop stretching, what diff temps taste like, how to get a whirlpool going without a lot of power, knowing when to stop stretching so milk doesn't separate. It is still going 4 drinks a day and 3 years later.

I just bough a Bianca v2 and atom 75 with titanium burrs. Love it. Grinder is almost too fast to be honest. By the time you tighten the grind you have dosed 10 grams lol. I was on the phone to order a LMLM, but by the time I added up wood accents plumb in kit and all that I was double the price of the Lelit. Yah I would rather have the black LMLM with my black atom, but not 2500$ worth of want. I have never used an LMLM but I'm sure they are awesome! And LMLM home was really cool.

If in your brain you have to have the LMLM buy it and don't look back. I would suggest the BDB and a decent grinder. Get a grinder you won't upgrade. Learn with the breville and use the crap out of it.Just a guess but the LMLM will have a much steeper learning curve and after you play with Espresso for awhile it might not even be the machine you want.

+1 Bianca for the price compared to LMLM.

Start smaller -- a good double boiler E61 (I have a Quick Mill, which has been trouble free, but there are many excellent brands) or similar. The Breville gets good notices here, but doesn't seem to be as durable -- no experience, but what I see posted here. You really don't know at this point how much you will get into this hobby, and if you decide to upgrade in the future, you'll have a better idea of what you want. Also a grinder is as important as the espresso machine, so that's another choice. Also don't forget that the water is very important if you want a trouble free experience from your machine. And get a bottomless portafilter -- the single best learning tool -- why they make spouted portafilters is a mystery to me. Not to mention whether your taste runs to traditional dark roasts (me) of something lighter. In short, don't get a Leica for your first camera!

Not sure why the Vivaldi doesn't get more love on this site. I had the rotary pump version of this machine for about 5 years and it was a great performer. The other poster's experiences, which let him to return it, was not something I experienced. Not sure if that was his first machine or not- I had the advantage of cutting my espresso teeth on a Gaggia Baby, followed by Miss Silvia and Mr. Brewtus, so I had gained a fair bit of knowledge before getting the Vivaldi. Personally I'd wait and give the Lelit Mara X a try. I'm intrigued by what I've read so far. The LMLM does get a lot of love....but it also seems to get a lot of posts about problems. However most seem small and are easily and quickly fixed by LM's excellent service.

CoffeeInAlaska wrote: 3. Breville Dual Boiler - I've only become interested in this machine because of the glowing reviews on these forums, especially since the Amazon user reviews were only so-so, particularly with regard to durability. If you guys are telling me I can get top-tier taste at 1/5 the price, then I'm all ears! However, if the LMLM will last 5x longer, then i suppose it might be a wash.

I can provide a data point here...I was one of the launch customers of the BDB in the USA back in Fall 2011.

-I got it from Williams Sonoma during a "30% off of anything over $1000" Fall Sale

-Just over two years later, the vacuum breaker stuck.. something that is not uncommon on other machines but seems rare on this one. It's an easy fix, (just remove and clean), but I told Breville and they sent me a brand new machine for free anyway (about a month or two off warranty)

-That machine went about six years with only routine maintenance: replace steam boiler o-rings, replace drippy steam ball valve (turns out they are DIY rebuildable but I didn't know that at the time). At about six years, the pre infusion began not working, and controllable pre infusion is one of the MAJOR brilliant things about this machine, beside Scace-killer temperature stability.* It was obviously long off warranty by that point. So I paid Breville's fixed $350 repair fee, which includes shipping both ways and a box to ship it in. They ended up sending me a brand new machine again.

-This summer it will be two years so far problem free on that machine. This one I have modified with a rotary pump and plumbing, and I am now using the water tap needle valve for full blown, beginning to end flow profiling. It's a simple, reversible, plug and play thing. No fabrication required.This is even better still than the already excellent, programmable pre infusion. Just as an experiment, I am running an old (formerly) leaky steam ball valve that I rebuilt, just to see if the rebuild is effective. That was a year ago and still going strong and leak free. I still have the original steam valve for it lying unused in a shoe box.

-That's pretty much it for nearly nine years

-I should say in case you didn't know already that the BDB has stainless steel boilers and a solid (not plated) stainless steel portafilter. As opposed to copper and brass in a lot of other machines. Disclosure, copper and brass would not bother me, but apparently it worries some people, so there it is

Other than this, I have no scale or corrosion damage because I use water with no Ca or Mg in it (the components of scale). This is huge and you should seek out this behavior no matter which machine you end up choosing.

*OT: This is one of the reasons the LMLM is off the table for me. You can modify a GS/3 the same way you can modify the BDB for flow profiling, and if I had to, that's the route I would take.

HTH

-Peter

Thanks for the input all! Very interesting to see some love for all three machines here. Also cool to see the Bianca thrown in as wild card - interestingly enough while watching some linea review YouTube videos last night, the related links led me toward the bianca and I got sucked toward that one too, even before reading these replies.

@pcrussell50 I'm impressed with the way Breville handled your dual boiler issues, so much so I feel pretty comfortable making the investment. Even if (when) I want to upgrade later, i feel it won't be a waste as long as I get several good years out of it.

Thanks everyone!

pcrussell50 wrote:I can provide a data point here...I was one of the launch customers of the BDB in the USA back in Fall 2011.

-I got it from Williams Sonoma during a "30% off of anything over $1000" Fall Sale

-Just over two years later, the vacuum breaker stuck.. something that is not uncommon on other machines but seems rare on this one. It's an easy fix, (just remove and clean), but I told Breville and they sent me a brand new machine for free anyway (about a month or two off warranty)

-That machine went about six years with only routine maintenance: replace steam boiler o-rings, replace drippy steam ball valve (turns out they are DIY rebuildable but I didn't know that at the time). At about six years, the pre infusion began not working, and controllable pre infusion is one of the MAJOR brilliant things about this machine, beside Scace-killer temperature stability.* It was obviously long off warranty by that point. So I paid Breville's fixed $350 repair fee, which includes shipping both ways and a box to ship it in. They ended up sending me a brand new machine again.

-This summer it will be two years so far problem free on that machine. This one I have modified with a rotary pump and plumbing, and I am now using the water tap needle valve for full blown, beginning to end flow profiling. It's a simple, reversible, plug and play thing. No fabrication required.This is even better still than the already excellent, programmable pre infusion. This machine is problem free up to this point. Just as an experiment, I am running an old (formerly) leaky steam ball valve that I rebuilt, just to see if the rebuild is effective. That was a year ago and still going strong and leak free. I still have the original steam valve for it lying unused in a shoe box.

-That's pretty much it for nearly eight years

-I should say in case you didn't know already that the BDB has stainless steel boilers and a solid (not plated) stainless steel portafilter. As opposed to copper and brass in a lot of other machines. Disclosure, copper and brass would not bother me, but apparently it worries some people, so there it is

Other than this, I have no scale or corrosion damage because I use water with no Ca or Mg in it (the components of scale). This is huge and you should seek out this behavior no matter which machine you end up choosing.

*OT: This is one of the reasons the LMLM is off the table for me. You can modify a GS/3 the same way you can modify the BDB for flow profiling, and if I had to, that's the route I would take.

HTH

-Peter

I am tweaking my water and would love to hear what you use. I have also had no scale and have been using RO with baking soda and Epsom salts

La Spaz used to have a big, active fan base here and elsewhere (http://s1cafe.com) but the new crop of machines gets all the fame now.
I expressed my experience here: Why I still love my La Spaz Mini Vivaldi after 9 years
I think that often shinier marketing and sometimes higher price bring fame to certain coffee gear. I would make the decision between LMLM and the La Spaz based on budget and aesthetics.

To be honest, I am still thinking of buying a different machine, mainly for fun. On my shortlist are DE1+ (I think about it as a playground) and LMLM and the reason I have not purchased either (yet?) is functional, not financial. I make a few cappuccinos every day and I really like the La Spaz Mini's steam lever (vs. LMLM's knob) and its heft and steam power (vs. the DE). I am also not sure that there is much to improve in the espresso department, especially if you like traditional Italian coffee (see interesting discussion here: Am I too old and cranky for third wave coffee?)