Help! $1000 budget for espresso machine & grinder - Page 3
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You need to learn to distinguish, appreciate, god shots from good shots and sink shots.
If you have been trained enough for that, just buy what you like and you 'll find some ritual to get the best out of what you bought. Provided patience, as it may take you up to half a year or more to get there, and provided enough repeatability in the devices you buy. Be aware that each combination of espresso machine and grinder has its ceiling for a given coffee roast. You can read all about the details in these HB fora.
With your budget, I would try to buy a 2nd hand professional grinder (mind the WAF and clearance between US sinks and US upper kitchen cabinets). There is some risk involved and you must be sure the burrs are new or not (to be able to judge price fairness). I guess most coffee outlets run these machines down until the burrs need replacement and then replace the entire machine. Or, a little money can buy you a very good machine.
As to the espresso machine, you want to do milk drinks most of the time. Single boiler without HX (1), single boiler with HX (2) or dual boiler (3) - your options. As your budget will probably not suffice for a second hand dual boiler machine, the choice is (1) or (2). I guess you should be able to find some second hand prosumer machine in your budget range from a previous loving caring owner with irresistible upgrade-itis.
If you would do the few cups per day you mention back-to-back, I would recommend (2), but have no HB-scientific proof at hand to underpin this.
If I had to go anew and on a budget myself today, but my budget would be a bit higher than yours, I would start with a PID'ed QM Alexia (with a real E/61 group). If money were tight, I would add the PID later. Then, when I really got fed up switching machine temperatures between espresso and milk, I would buy the separate/dedicated milk steamer from QM (all at Chris Coffee). Chances are however, before you decide to buy the milk steamer add-on, you are weaned off the cow milk.
Regards
Peter
If you have been trained enough for that, just buy what you like and you 'll find some ritual to get the best out of what you bought. Provided patience, as it may take you up to half a year or more to get there, and provided enough repeatability in the devices you buy. Be aware that each combination of espresso machine and grinder has its ceiling for a given coffee roast. You can read all about the details in these HB fora.
With your budget, I would try to buy a 2nd hand professional grinder (mind the WAF and clearance between US sinks and US upper kitchen cabinets). There is some risk involved and you must be sure the burrs are new or not (to be able to judge price fairness). I guess most coffee outlets run these machines down until the burrs need replacement and then replace the entire machine. Or, a little money can buy you a very good machine.
As to the espresso machine, you want to do milk drinks most of the time. Single boiler without HX (1), single boiler with HX (2) or dual boiler (3) - your options. As your budget will probably not suffice for a second hand dual boiler machine, the choice is (1) or (2). I guess you should be able to find some second hand prosumer machine in your budget range from a previous loving caring owner with irresistible upgrade-itis.
If you would do the few cups per day you mention back-to-back, I would recommend (2), but have no HB-scientific proof at hand to underpin this.
If I had to go anew and on a budget myself today, but my budget would be a bit higher than yours, I would start with a PID'ed QM Alexia (with a real E/61 group). If money were tight, I would add the PID later. Then, when I really got fed up switching machine temperatures between espresso and milk, I would buy the separate/dedicated milk steamer from QM (all at Chris Coffee). Chances are however, before you decide to buy the milk steamer add-on, you are weaned off the cow milk.
Regards
Peter
- peacecup
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Nice to see a post Jim, and as usual, right on. I don't have the kind of experience that the other posters here have, but I have learned that my skills (and good, fresh beans) are most important.another_jim wrote:I daresay most of the regulars here can pull a better shot from a $65 Krups than a newbie from a $6500 GS3.
I've really enjoyed the espresso from the spring lever Ponte Vecchio, and it also serves the purpose of a double-boiler machine because you can steam milk and pull shots simultaneously. Lots can be read about the Lusso on the Smackdown thread, but my baby is the less expensive Export.
PC
LMWDP #049
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."
Hand-ground, hand-pulled: "hands down.."
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Marshall wrote:So, I tend to recommend easy, relatively forgiving equipment to beginners (with adjustments for budget). I don't think levers and HX machines fit the bill for beginners. There is too much to learn, too much tank refilling, too much bad espresso and too little positive feedback.
Excellent point, there are skills and then there are "skillz." The former can be learned by rote instruction (e.g., temperature surfing and HX flushing), the latter are developed with lots of time, trial and error, and mental energy (e.g., taste flaw and extraction diagnosis). When recommending equipment, I lean towards those that have strong forgiveness factor in more difficult categories since the realized benefit is higher. I've read plenty of Rancilio Silvia upgrade stories that started with "Wow! It's been a week and I pull better shots more consistently with my [fill in HX E61] than in my years with Silvia". Both machine designs require temperature management, but that's not where beginners are most likely to stumble once they clear the first week hurdle.shadowfax wrote:That's certainly a good point in terms of the levers. However, as far as HX machines go, I had much better luck with La Valentina than with Silvia, or my Gaggia. Cheap $500 dual use single boiler machines don't seem likely to forgive any better than an E61. Quite the contrary, I would say.
I once agreed with Marshall's comment that levers are too hard for beginners. Two recently reviewed lever machines prove it's an over generalization: The Gaggia Achille and the Ponte Vecchio Lusso. The Lusso in particular makes a very good "newbie" recommendation. I'll elaborate on this point when the review is published in a few weeks.peacecup wrote:I've really enjoyed the espresso from the spring lever Ponte Vecchio, and it also serves the purpose of a double-boiler machine because you can steam milk and pull shots simultaneously.
Dan Kehn
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I spoke with Chris last night via email, and he explained to me that the reason he doesn't sell the Expobar is because it is poorly built with cheap materials. After thinking about it more, and knowing that I want something that will last me for a long time without feeling the need to upgrade, I have decided to up my budget and try and get an Anita and Macap M4 or Mazzer Mini.
Am I making a good choice in going this route? I understand that things take time, and I am willing to put in the effort, but will the Anita be too much for a beginner to handle? Is there anything to look out for when using it?
I am hoping Chris has either the Anita or grinders refurbished or used, as I am sure that will save me a lot of money to use for accessories. I believe he said the prices of the Quick Mill line-up will also be increasing next week! I'd really like to purchase everything from him, but I will also keep a lookout on the forums or eBay or craigslist for any used grinders, as I see them often go for around half of the retail price.
Thanks for the help.
Rob
Am I making a good choice in going this route? I understand that things take time, and I am willing to put in the effort, but will the Anita be too much for a beginner to handle? Is there anything to look out for when using it?
I am hoping Chris has either the Anita or grinders refurbished or used, as I am sure that will save me a lot of money to use for accessories. I believe he said the prices of the Quick Mill line-up will also be increasing next week! I'd really like to purchase everything from him, but I will also keep a lookout on the forums or eBay or craigslist for any used grinders, as I see them often go for around half of the retail price.
Thanks for the help.
Rob
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With all due respect to Chris' opinion, that's an oversimplification. It is true that Quickmill does choose better quality components and the workmanship is better, but Expobar delivers good value for your money. The Expobar Pulser is the least expensive E61 HX espresso machine on the market ($799). The Quickmill Anita sells for $1250. For $450 more, you obviously should expect more.mmm wrote:I spoke with Chris last night via email, and he explained to me that the reason he doesn't sell the Expobar is because it is poorly built with cheap materials.
Once again I'll point to one of my favorite quotes of 2007:mmm wrote:Am I making a good choice in going this route? I understand that things take time, and I am willing to put in the effort, but will the Anita be too much for a beginner to handle? Is there anything to look out for when using it?
Let it put it this way: I would rather train a beginner on an Anita than an entry-level espresso machine, simply because the next step up is more consistent.another_jim wrote:Newbies invariably attribute their inability to pull two identical shots in a row to the lack of sufficient equipment settings they can change between shots. The fact is that the entry level equipment used by newbies is much more unforgiving than the commercial equipment people buy after they decide they'll pursue home espresso. This creates a double whammy, the people with technique good enough to use entry level equipment have moved beyond it; and the people buying it will have their weaknesses mercilessly exposed. The upshot is that entry level equipment gets a lot of unfair criticism; and that newbies get a very long hazing learning to cope with it.
Dan Kehn
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I once bought an Expobar, and returned it within a week -- "poorly built" and "cheap materials" sums it up for me!mmm wrote:I spoke with Chris last night via email, and he explained to me that the reason he doesn't sell the Expobar is because it is poorly built with cheap materials.
(Dan's right, of course; there is a reason why the Expobar costs less. But if you can afford to spend more, you should. The amount of money spent now will more than repay itself with the number of years of use you'll get out of a better-built machine.)
Upgrading to an Anita from the (my) initial recommendation of an Alexia makes perfect sense. I think -- long term - you'll be much happier with an HX (and it will "grow" with your needs over time) more than a single-boiler/dual-use machine.
I'd suggest a Macap 4 over the Mazzer Mini for two reasons, both of which sound trival. One is the cord placement. That sounds really trivial until you get it in your home. Trust me. The second reason is covered in Home-Barista's "High-end Espresso Grinder Review" (required reading, if you haven't already done so). The Macap sweeps cleaner, drops straighter, and is all-around neater than the Mazzer.
Cheers,
Jason
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.
- cafeIKE
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About 3 years ago, I decided I'd upgrade from the SL-90. Since the SL-90 was ~$400 when I bought it, I figured ~$800 would get me twice as muchHB wrote:With all due respect to Chris' opinion, that's an oversimplification. It is true that Quickmill does choose better quality components and the workmanship is better, but Expobar delivers good value for your money. The Expobar Pulser is the least expensive E61 HX espresso machine on the market ($799). The Quickmill Anita sells for $1250. For $450 more, you obviously should expect more.
Long story short, investigating, I came to the conclusion that the middle ground in e61 machines are kind of a no-mans-land : neither particulary inexpensive nor exemplary in their features or components.
In the long run, a top drawer machine pays dividends for years : Consistent results, zero loss on interim machines, pride of ownership.
For those with financial discipline, there are low % finance charge credit card deals available:
Get the card, charge the kit, cut up the card and pay it off over 12 months.
Oh yeah, a friend with an Expobar Pulser makes damn fine espresso and lattes for his missus.
Ian's Coffee Stuff
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http://www.ieLogical.com/coffee
- shadowfax
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This past weekend I visited a friend in Houston who has a Macap M4. After getting to play around with it for awhile, I have to admit I wasn't as impressed as I'd hoped to be. The cord placement is a lot nicer (as you say), and his chrome grinder is much prettier all around. However, I still felt that even though the doser sweeps cleaner, you still have to sweep it out a bit to make it clean. I was unimpressed by all that plastic in the doser.zin1953 wrote:I'd suggest a Macap 4 over the Mazzer Mini for two reasons, both of which sound trival. One is the cord placement. That sounds really trivial until you get it in your home. Trust me. The second reason is covered in Home-Barista's "High-end Espresso Grinder Review" (required reading, if you haven't already done so). The Macap sweeps cleaner, drops straighter, and is all-around neater than the Mazzer.
That's just my own take. I think Mazzer still rules the roost, but it's unfortunate that both grinders have such silly little nits. Ultimately, it's most likely that either grinder is great in the long run. None of the differences between the two allow me to make a decisive recommendation.
Nicholas Lundgaard
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Are you sure that this is a "real" E/61 group? When I look at the Elektra A3, I can see its group is not E/61, there are others that share some of the E/61 looks. I recently saw an American made machine that e.g. lacked the hex screw on the nose and definitely was not an E/61. So, there are look-alikes - some would give better results, others are inferior.HB wrote:The Expobar Pulser is the least expensive E61 HX espresso machine on the market ($799)
Within the "real" E/61 class, there may be differences even.
That said, I cannot imagine the Pulsar to have a real E/61 group as a complete group would be nearly this amount of money, I would guess.
Regards
Peter
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Make sure you get the thermometer that you can permanently insert into the group's front.mmm wrote:I have decided to up my budget and try and get an Anita [...]
Forget about the absolute number and develop your skills w.r.t. flushing and repeatability.
Remember the E/61 HX was developed for coffee bars in Italy that do back-to-back series all day. A good barista knows how to flush the group and PF after idle time to get a good espresso and then can do a back to back series on one group and on a two groups machine would move to the other groups after a few espressi, in order for the first group to heat up again. On a single group HX machine - which I have myself as well - you need to develop a feeling for the relation between design parameters and related issues on the one hand and excellent espresso on the other.
If you change the (pressure=temperature) setting of the boiler, be aware the logic of the flushes changes.
Still, I am totally satisfied with the QM experience through CC.
The only thing I upgraded was the portafilter - I replaced the original double one by La Marzocco, but found the original QM basket give me better results in that PF.
Regards
Peter