A Forgiving First Espresso Machine - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
Bluenoser
Posts: 1433
Joined: 6 years ago

#11: Post by Bluenoser »

tennisman03110 wrote:I have a hard time thinking a lever machine will be forgiving. There's more variables. You've got to get water temperature correct (as opposed to using a machine with PID), get lever pull time and pressure correct (as opposed to using an electronically controlled pump). That combined with getting grind size dialed in, puck prep, etc. seems like a headache.

At $2,000, you can afford a single or dual boiler with PID. Plus an espresso only grinder. You can start with something cheaper, either the Robot or Gaggia Classic Pro, e.g.. But I'd say invest your max cash. Selling nice stuff isn't hard.
No.. I have an HX and a Robot.. and the HX was much more of a headache.. There is no water temp to get right with the Robot.. for starting.. use Medium or darker beans and you use water right off the boil. Don't preheat anything when you start, there is no need when you begin. So water temp is not an issue. Later when you get fussier, you can play with preheating stuff.. but I seldom preheat my stuff.

That way you can spend $1k for a good grinder unless you want to grind by hand.. But in the electric area, a good grinder is important.. and something like the Niche Zero is currently one of the top values for longevity and quality of grind in a sub $1k model. A bit more difficult to get but worth the wait. If you go hand grinder, you can get really good results, but get a Kinu Phoenix or Commandante C40, or equivalent.. They will be about $300 and can rival $1k electric grinders, but are, obviously, more work.

For frothing milk, I think the NanoFoamer is a good value.

In my experience the levers are easier to 'dial in' as your basket prep does not need to be as good. A Robot or Flair 58 or Flair Prov2 are all good manual choices (get a pressure gauge model). The Flair 58 has a heated group and I think has the potential to give slightly better shots for lighter roasts but I have no experience with it. With a good grinder, you will have the potential to create shots as good as $2k electric machines. This is, by far, the cheapest cost of entry, I think .. with potential to experiment and move further.

Now if you almost never need milk.. a single boiler machine with PID might also be nice.. One advantage of the manual machine is that you don't need to worry about water quality or maintenance. On any electric pump machine you will need to use water with a chemistry that will not promote scale (descaling is a pain ) and you will need to do chemical cleans and boiler flushing on some regular basis.

The Breville Dual Boiler (used) is a good value if the owner used very good water.. but if not.. you always stand the chance of inheriting a machine with scale problems (in electric boiler versions).

tennisman03110
Posts: 356
Joined: 5 years ago

#12: Post by tennisman03110 »

Bluenoser wrote:No.. I have an HX and a Robot.. and the HX was much more of a headache.. There is no water temp to get right with the Robot.. .
I didn't say anything about a HX. No, I don't think that's a good choice here. But I fail to believe a PID single or double boiler would be less forgiving than a a lever.

Not that a lever and a good grinder is a bad option for espresso only.

BruceWayne
Posts: 299
Joined: 3 years ago

#13: Post by BruceWayne »

Following up with a machine recommendation.
0. Training.
1. A really good grinder, Niche or Eureka, most likely.
2. A pack of microfiber cloths, knock box, scale, portafilter funnel, and likely a good tamper, since a lot of machines come with a cheesy plastic thing.
3. A source of fresh coffee that you know (and like) the taste of. It helps to have an idea of how your shot is supposed to taste.
4. Airtight containers for said coffee.
5. With whatever you have left over, get a 58 mm group head machine. That way you won't need to get a new set of prep tools, baskets, etc. when you replace the machine. So, a saturated group head semiautomatic like the one Sandra F recommended. If you get a lever machine, this point doesn't apply, except for the Flair 58, I think.

I have no experience with this machine, but you'll probably want something with a feature set like this one, so use it as a reference:
https://www.1st-line.com/buy/lelit-pl41 ... o-machine/

BruceWayne
Posts: 299
Joined: 3 years ago

#14: Post by BruceWayne »

This one looks interesting:

https://www.uniterra-nomad.com/

Add a decent hand grinder and you're in under $500. :lol: The removable pressurized valve means it can be forgiving or not depending on if you use the valve. Does anyone have one?

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Jeff
Team HB
Posts: 6806
Joined: 19 years ago

#15: Post by Jeff »

Anything that advertises "perfect crema" (or brags about "12-bar" or higher) is immediately off my list.

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happycat
Posts: 1464
Joined: 11 years ago

#16: Post by happycat »

MNate wrote:I'll second the Robot or Flair vote, especially if you don't absolutely have to have milk all the time. It really does easily get very good results and the maintenance is zilch. Spend your extra money on a very good grinder!
I agree with this 100%.

Get a good grinder and a simple manual lever and a kettle... it will deliver easy shots... why? Because you adjust pressure on the lever depending on how well things are going. It's not the all or nothing success or fail based on coffee freshness, grind and puck prep that pump machines can be.

Also cleaning can be a cinch... and no descaling or cleaning valves or worrying about boilers etc. ever. The Flair is also portable. I throw mine in a backpack when travelling.
LMWDP #603

Bluenoser
Posts: 1433
Joined: 6 years ago

#17: Post by Bluenoser »

BruceWayne wrote:This one looks interesting:

https://www.uniterra-nomad.com/
This one has been around for a few years.. I remember looking at it when I was starting out.. From what I remember, the 'crema valve' is like the small pin-hole in pressurized baskets.. the crema produced is by forcing the liquid through small orfices to get an airier foam than you'll get on a normal espresso machine. While this might be good for travel, I don't think its in the same league as the other manuals mentioned.

Jasper_8137
Posts: 451
Joined: 7 years ago

#18: Post by Jasper_8137 »

happycat wrote:I agree with this 100%.

Get a good grinder and a simple manual lever and a kettle... it will deliver easy shots... why? Because you adjust pressure on the lever depending on how well things are going. It's not the all or nothing success or fail based on coffee freshness, grind and puck prep that pump machines can be.

Also cleaning can be a cinch... and no descaling or cleaning valves or worrying about boilers etc. ever. The Flair is also portable. I throw mine in a backpack when travelling.
Completely agree. A Robot and good grinder will outperform many of the more expensive pump machines. Even more forgiving would be a good spring lever machine, but harder to find at your price point.

I have both a robot and flair pro. I prefer the ease of the robot at home (not as many steps to preheat) and the flair for travel. I pair mine with a Kinu M47 hand grinder, and to be honest, get shots comparable to those pulled on my LMLM with a monolith grinder.

PeetsFan
Posts: 255
Joined: 3 years ago

#19: Post by PeetsFan »

The grinder is more important than the machine. Not more expensive, but more important.

My preference is an actual machine, such as a Breville Dual Boiler - which is fantastic. Or, an Italian E61 machine. An E61 dual boiler is outside your budget, but you can get a single boiler model with a PID - which a very accurate, computer controlled temperature control - within your budget.

Of the single boilers, these come as heat exchanger (HX) models and non-HX. The non-HX is switched to espresso temp or milk steaming temp. There's a delay as the water heats, so it's inconvenient for milk-based drinks, but if you don't steam milk, who cares? A non-HX with PID offers better-than-HX temperature stability for espresso brewing.

You can browse through these machines and grinders at Whole Latte Love, Chris Coffee or Clive. Lots of great choices.

Personally, I loved the E61 design and I make milk-based drinks, so I spent more and bought an E61 dual boiler. I absolutely love it. Once you have a grinder and a good tamping station, you can watch some videos or take an online class for an hour or two, and you'll get fantastic results. And they'll be better the next day. And the next. I love my morning coffee. I look forward to it every day.

thatbrian (original poster)
Posts: 25
Joined: 3 years ago

#20: Post by thatbrian (original poster) »

MNate wrote:I'll second the Robot or Flair vote, especially if you don't absolutely have to have milk all the time. It really does easily get very good results and the maintenance is zilch. Spend your extra money on a very good grinder!
Is it that much better than the Flair?

This option would completely tie my hands for frothing milk, which although not a priority, will be needed.