Flair Pro 2 vs. Cafelat Robot vs. ROK GC - Page 5

#41: Post by **Jonk** » November 4th, 2020, 4:19 pm

Halfrican2004 wrote:I was considering this grinder, or a Chestnut G1. Thoughts?

Late reply, but I just wanted to chime in that the Chestnut G1 grinds tasty espressos - but you'd spend at least 2-3x the time grinding compared to say a Kinu M47 and wouldn't be able to fine tune the setting much at all (instead having to change dose when making adjustments). There is a different burr set used in G1S that should grind faster, but still suffer from the poor adjustability.

#42: Post by **bobpaule** » March 6th, 2021, 7:59 pm

Flair Pro 2, someone needs to come up with a rubber cap for the basket. On my old Flair I blocked the spout and used it to be able to preheat the basket by pouring hot water. No matter what they say, the Flair Pro 2 with its thick walls, if properly preheated, will lead to a more stable extraction temp than the thin walled huge cylinder/basket block on the Robot. Just saying, I know the Robot has many followers.

I am psyched about the Pro 2, the pressurestat just blew on my Ponte Vecchio so while I fix it I will have the Pro 2 paired with the LW HG-1, with an EKG kettle handy.

#43: Post by **icowrich** » June 26th, 2021, 1:14 am

I used an original Presso for many years (2, actually), but eventually switched to the original Flair. I recently upgraded one of my Pressos with the GC upgrade kit and think it's a lot better than it was before. The plastic piston in the original Presso or ROK has a tendency to crack, which is why I switched. All Flairs use stainless steel brew heads and they're little tanks. I have no experience with the Flair Pro, but I can imagine the performance can only be even better. That doesn't mean I don't like the ROK, and I definitely don't regret the GC upgrade. One advantage is that the double levers are easier to work with. The GC has a narrower piston and easily achieves 9 bars. You can get 9 bars with any of the Flair models, too, but it requires a bit more elbow grease.

To me, the biggest advantage the Flair has over the ROK is that it heats up more easily and retains its heat better than the ROK. Of course, the Flair 58 stays warm via electricity and blows everything else out of the water.

#44: Post by **Bluenoser** » June 26th, 2021, 1:42 pm

icowrich wrote:
To me, the biggest advantage the Flair has over the ROK is that it heats up more easily and retains its heat better than the ROK. Of course, the Flair 58 stays warm via electricity and blows everything else out of the water.

Two of us tested the ROK GC against the Flair Pro v2 and Robot and the ROK had a harder time creating the same pressure without leaking.. We also found the espresso thinner and not as rich or balanced. Now we did return the ROK and the vendor replaced all the removable parts and said that it no longer leaked... so maybe it was faulty (It was brand new when we got it). Maybe the grind needed to be tweaked better. We did about 6 tests. We did get some extractions that did not leak, but we still found the result not as 'full'. We kept the Flair over the ROK. We found the Flair and Robot results very similar with the Robot workflow being easier. The flair 58 looks interesting, and I'd be interested in trying it.. but don't think it would be a day/night change.

June 27th, 2021, 6:54 am

Bluenoser wrote:A friend and I looked at all 3. We were purchasing for him.

The ROK GC is the least effective of the 3. The seal around the PF/screen is a bit prone to leaking when you apply maximum pressure. The ROK created the thinnest espresso. He originally bought the ROK and returned it. We made identical espresso with the ROK and Robot (before he had gotten the Flair) and the Robot was significantly richer and better tasting. Same beans, same grinder, grind dialled in for each machine

The Rok is actually the most efficient. I'm currently compiling a data from tests to support this claim. The short version is the Rok can produce 9 bars of pressure with 19 kg of downward force. Once the machine and seals are worn in a bit you can achieve 9 bars with around 15 to 16 kg of downward force. This is significantly less then the other two machines. If you try to use the same pressure on the Rok that you use with the Robot you're trying to push a 12 plus bar shot. In this case seals will leak. I think the complaints about the thin espresso out of the Rok are is the result of channeling from too high of pressure. The robot does have the clear at advantage when used without preheat when compared to he Rok however with a 2-minute preheat it will achieve much more stable temperatures over the course of a shot. In tests I measured the water temperature just above the dispersion screen and the temperature maintained a steady 92 degrees for about 35 seconds and then dropped to 91 degrees for the remaining minute.
I do use the Rok at a coffee stand on the weekend and we do 100/200 drinks each weekend. When you doing back-to-back shots you don't have to worry about preheat. For consecutive shots the Rok has cleanest workflow which is one of the reasons we chose it over the flair or the robot.
I think the best advice I can give to people who struggling using the Rok is don't push so hard and be sure to preheat. We consistently get better shots than the cafes around us and thats the words of our customers.
Edit: All comments and tests refer to the Rok GC which has greatly improved performance over the original.

#46: Post by **Bluenoser** » June 27th, 2021, 9:58 am

With that amount of shots, you would certainly have much more expertise with it. It certainly could be we were using too much force and the grind may have been too fine.

#47: Post by **Marcus1968** » October 24th, 2021, 11:39 am

My tentative conclusion -digging through this forum- is that the Robot with medium and darker roasts, don't necessarily require preheating. Am I right?

But the Flair is stricter there?

BTW: When I see Robot workflow reviews; Then it strikes me that people have to put in a lot of effort for 9 bar / espresso. That looks uncomfortable to me.

What are your experiences with the above?

P.S. Of course there is also the Flair 58 with the electric preheating. But I am more interested in the Flair Pro 2.

#48: Post by **Jonk** » October 24th, 2021, 12:58 pm

Medium and even dark roasts can benefit from pre-heating and a slower temperature decline on the Robot - but you'll be able to pull a shot with no pre-heating as well and it can also taste better sometimes.

I have tried pulling shots on a Flair Classic without pre-heating and the brew temperature is way too low and shots were awful. Flair 2 has more metal and a bigger capacity but if anything I think it might fare even worse. So yes, there's a strict need to pre-heat instead of an option.

8 bars is the limit for what I think is comfortable on a stock Robot. It's not so much the effort but ergonomics - when I push harder the levers start to hurt my palms. The optional https://www.cafelatstore.com/collection ... obot-hands for another $20 eliminated that problem, but instead you need to be a bit more careful not to push too hard. There's no real need to go above 6-8 bars in my opinion and the oft quoted 9 bars in pump machines is AFAIK actually closer to 8 on a Robot, where the pressure reading is directly above the puck and not way back by the pump.

I like the workflow with the Robot more, but I didn't mind pre-heating the Flair Classic that much and I liked the narrow baskets. What made me keep the Robot instead of the Flair was the overall quality, feel and sturdiness of parts.

October 24th, 2021, 1:36 pm

Marco; Not sure you if you saw the thread below. I'm a huge fan of using a moka pot basket for preheating the Pro2. Not sure it's strictly required for med/dark roasts but certainly benefits lighter roasts on the Pro2

User Experience: Flair PRO 2

As far as max pressure goes, IMO these days the trend seems to be in the 6-8bar range with a decline to 4-6 bar. This is true on the Pro2 and also on my DE1. I've pulled a lot of great shots on the Pro2 in this range.

#50: Post by **Jeff** » October 24th, 2021, 2:20 pm

I'll preheat the Robot piston for the first shot of the day, as my kitchen is typically 60-65° F. After that, the "overflow" method for heating the basket seems sufficient for medium roasts.

9 bars seems excessive to me. Most of my better shots are in the 6-8 bar range, declining from there.