First espresso machine - used Ascaso Steel Uno - is it worth it? - Page 3

December 7th, 2021, 2:42 pm

Andreasstr wrote:If I were to buy the Cafelat Robot i would need an good electric kettle or one that works on my induction top aswell, and thats not very cheap. As for the milk, I do not have a microwave available so yeah. This just makes the whole brewing process kinda messy if you know what i mean What about the Rancilio Silvia v2 model? Is it too outdated or could it be a good budget espresso machine?

The Silvia is fine - but it is a lot easier to use if you install a PID controller. With no PID, then you'll have to learn how to temperature surf to get consistency.

In general, having to learn is the hallmark of the Silvia, because it will punish your wallet otherwise. Supposedly the machine was originally designed as a gift to Rancilio's commercial distributors. As such, it has no - no - barriers to protect against improper use. For example, if you use the machine improperly for steaming, then you will eventually burn out the element - and then the entire boiler upper assembly has to be replaced (in a V2). There is no water level sensor; you are expected to know to check the water and not run the machine dry (and then burn out the element, etc.). There is no boiler bleed; you're expected to know to bleed the boiler (or get inconsistent results and then risk burning out the element, etc.).

OTOH, if you know how to use it, then the espressos and cappuccinos can be excellent. I'd take a Silvia over a Gaggia every time. (I have a Silvia v1.)

December 7th, 2021, 4:28 pm

If I were to buy a Silvia i would definitely get a PID and OPV. Thats whats dragging me towards buying second hand and to do some tinkering. Both the PID and the OPV kits are very user friendly, plug n play basically. And of course cheap, relatively speaking ($150). Thats the art of making good espressos, you gotta burn some elements before its perfect hehe

. On the other hand im a bit sceptical to buying a 10-20 year old machine. Any specific pitfalls to avoid? There is currently only one available on the norwegian market and hes claiming his Silvia v2 is 5 years old ($270), wierd when it only was produced until 2009.

December 7th, 2021, 4:37 pm

Jeff wrote:I've used Silvas in the past at home and found the variability a great frustration. Occasional shots would be very good, close to what I was getting from my E61 HX (this was 10-20 years ago, before affordable dedicated-boiler machines were available). Seemingly, many more were mediocre or close to undrinkable. There was a Silvia at work. I preferred the predictable Peet's coffee from the pick-your-drink, superautomat monolith, as long as it was buried under the milk-like stuff.

When learning the craft of espresso, one of the hardest things is figuring out how changes you make impact the result. The less variability you have in the grinder and machine, the easier it is to associate a flavor change with something you did, rather than "randomness" of the gear. Having appropriate brew pressure, by adjusting and, if needed, adding an OPV is, for me essential. I haven't kept track of which Gaggia machines over the years have an adjustable OPV and which don't. A PID on that class of machine is close to essential for me, as I don't have the patience to temperature surf.

At under US$1,000, my choices would be first and foremost a Cafelat Robot. I find it very forgiving and very reliable at producing very good to excellent espresso. You don't need a thermostatically controlled kettle. You're most likely just to use water right off the boil, or "as long as it takes to grind and/or prep the basket" if you're pulling dark roasts. A plain electric kettle ($30-50 or so) is plenty. Others have reported that one or more variants of the Flair 58 is a good machine. Second, a solid, used E61 HX with a group-head thermometer such as an EricS. Just above the $1,000 mark, you might consider the Quick Mill Silvano or hoping to find a well-maintained Breville Dual Boiler ("BDB") of the current generation (920, I believe).

Some have reported that the mid-range, non-grinder Breville units are a reasonable, budget choice. Espresso machine with fastest warm-up?

If I do buy a used machine, either a Gaggia or Silvia i will definitely add an adjustable OPV and a PID kit to it. Thats why im leaning towards buying a second hand one to keep my budget at a minimum yet getting most bang for the buck. These kits dont cost that much from what ive seen and is essential for pulling good shots. Atleast thats what James Hoffman thinks

December 7th, 2021, 5:42 pm

baldheadracing wrote:...
FWIW, here's a comparison - the Lelit in the comparison is roughly equal to the Ascaso with 250ml/57mm boiler group.

The austrians did test a Lelit as well if I remember correctly. Anyway all other termoblocks they tested and they tested at least 5 more were pretty bad. The main difference seems to be that Ascaso heats the portafilter as well.

baldheadracing wrote:...

The issue with most thermoblock implementations is flow, as Jeff alluded to. For example, it is relatively straightforward to calibrate the thermalblock's controls to give good results for the constant flow rate resulting from the fixed orifice of a SCACE device. However, a "normal" vibration pump extraction (no flow or pressure profiling) will have a flow rate that increases during a shot. Similarly, the flow for a particular pull could be faster or slower than the SCACE ideal. The questions are then: how well can the system react and control for differences in flow; and how large will those differences be when the system loses control? Note these questions apply to all machines, not just thermoblocks - and it is not thermoblocks in and of themselves; it is the implementation.

That is a very good point about the different flow affecting the temperature stability. However I believe that the Ascaso thermoblock is constructed to house more then 50ml of water in a long tube like housing. So enough for a regular shot. Maybe even way more then that. Hence the flow does not affect the temperature of the water as hot and cold water don't mix like in a boiler. This is just my understanding of the concept and I might be wrong.

I am pretty fond of this system, but I am not too fond of the issues with Ascaso machines that are discussed on Kaffee Netz. Ascaso is pretty popular in Germany so there are a lot of people buying them and a lot of issues are discussed, like electronic failures, rust in pipes or on connections. While these are discussed there are also many people if not a vast majority who do not have any trouble.

December 7th, 2021, 5:46 pm

Andreasstr wrote:If I were to buy a Silvia i would definitely get a PID and OPV. Thats whats dragging me towards buying second hand and to do some tinkering. Both the PID and the OPV kits are very user friendly, plug n play basically. And of course cheap, relatively speaking ($150). Thats the art of making good espressos, you gotta burn some elements before its perfect hehe . On the other hand im a bit sceptical to buying a 10-20 year old machine. Any specific pitfalls to avoid? There is currently only one available on the norwegian market and hes claiming his Silvia v2 is 5 years old ($270), wierd when it only was produced until 2009.

Silvia's have an adjustable OPV. The early OPV needed to be adjusted with washers, but those were only on the initial models (v0?) and early v1 models iIRC. My early-2006 V1 (older boiler design with cast-in thermowell) has the OPV that can be adjusted with a wrench common to later models. You will, however, probably want to adjust the OPV, as earlier models were setup to handle pods, where the OPV is set at 12bar.

From what I remember, the Gaggia needs a spring kit to adjust its OPV.

Other than the normal inspection, the main thing with an old Silvia is to buy one that works properly. Unscrupulous/ignorant sellers will sell them with heating elements that are cracked/worn. The machine will still "work," but the machine is actually leaking current to ground and will soon fail. Plugging the machine into a GFI (ground-fault-interrupt) socket will test this, but one can also use a multimeter. Make sure that the boiler is full of water, unplug the unit, unscrew and remove the top body plate, and test the resistance between the heating element terminals and ground/boiler body. If there is any reading at all, then you will need a new upper boiler assembly and heating element, plus a couple other bits depending on which boiler is in the machine. That's not a big deal to fix - and to be honest, I'd want to remove the boiler top on a used machine that I bought just to aid cleaning things up, but the price has to come down accordingly.

There is something odd about a "v2" Silvia claimed to be only five years old. It could have been new old-stock I guess. However, the price seems low compared to the USA/Canada market - a little over the price for a machine with a blown heating element to be honest.

December 7th, 2021, 5:48 pm

PS: Steaming takes forever on these Ascasos, as stated in the videos.

December 10th, 2021, 8:13 am

coffeeOnTheBrain wrote:...However I believe that the Ascaso thermoblock is constructed to house more then 50ml of water in a long tube like housing....
. This is just my understanding of the concept and I might be wrong.
...

Turns out I was wrong

The german distributor of Ascaso stated in the comments if a recent YouTube video that the thermoblock is completely empty before the shot button is pushed. So it is clearly not what I had hoped for.
I guess I have to get 3 or more of Ascaso's thermoblocks and connect them in line to achieve what I have envisioned

Here is the story why the distributor had a video on the topic:
There was another video from the austrians about the Ascaso Baby with the rotary pump. The review was much less favorable. It seems to have caused some waves and the german distributor did a video to straighten things out. While the distributor surly has only sales in mind he did deliver a lot of insights in his video. One of which is that the faster flow of the rotary pump causes some issues with the temperature stability of the thermoblock if the service boiler is turned off. Exactly that setup was tested by the austrians and seems to have caused the biggest wave.

Here are links to the videos, all german of course: