shadowfax wrote:FWIW, I am not sure the ESO filter will get you a particularly impressive softening job. It took Tom's water from ~100-110 ppm to 70-80 ppm of hardness, a reduction of only about 1.5-2 grains. That's good for Tom, as his water wasn't that bad to begin with. IIRC he'd be better off in the 150 ppm total TDS range with something more like 50-60 ppm of hardness, but I think he's close enough; in general it's tastier to err on the high side, too, depending on what your TDS is made of.

That's unfortunate. Our tap water is 250.

Looking at some of the other Bunn filter products, I see they have a better explanation of "scale inhibitors," which clearly is a chemical additive, rather than a softening process: "Reduced scale formation by the controlled release of proprietary scale inhibitors."

The same search found the Bunn EQHP-ESP, which is a heavy-duty water softener plus scale inhibitors, designed specifically for espresso machines. At 10.5 GPG (grains per gallon) hardness reduction it would knock off 180 PPM, reducing our tap water from 250 PPM down to a less-than-ideal, but still workable, 70 PPM.

http://www.bunnomatic.com/pdfs/commerci ... ts/f10.pdf. It requires 23" of vertical space and is $130 on Ebay. Isn't this fun?

Arpi wrote:Hi folks

Reading this thread has made me think if I am missing something important. I just tasted my filtered water but I don't find anything awful about it. It is not pepsi but not it is not bad either. It has been softened from 120 till the 10s. I tried the unfiltered water but I like more the filtered one.

I think you have missed the point. Eliminating bad flavors is only half the battle. You need minerals for proper extraction of flavor components from tea and coffee. Here is a simple test. Buy a bottle of spring water. At the same time, brew one cup of tea with your filtered water and one with the spring water in clear glasses for 4 minutes. Then look at them. You will be amazed at the difference. Then taste them.

Same thing with coffee. It's just easier to see the difference with tea.

What Marshall said a several posts up is worth repeating:

Things I care about:
1. What comes out of the exit end of the filter.
2. Cost of ownership (including filter replacements).
3. Ease of replacing filters.
4. Longevity.

Some comments I would add - it is also valuable to know the quality of the water going into the chosen "treatment system". To accommodate that, McMaster Carr (and lots of other sites) sell water test strips that should be in every barista's tool bag. I also can't see the value of locking yourself into a particular brand hence the particular website that Jim (gj91) linked: http://www.freshwatersystems.com/ lists generic 10" filter housings that can accommodate filters and/or softening systems from a variety of manufacturers. IMO, the ideal system would, in this order, filter the water, soften it as necessary, and regulate the pressure to the machine. It would have quarter-turn ball valves which would allow you to change the element(s) with minimal spills and pressure gages indicating when its time to replace the element(s).

Marshall, thanks for the explanation.

I am an eager learner and I may make improper questions at times. From the info I've read in some filter websites, a remineralizer filter adds Ca and Mg back to the water, which is what I think hurts the espresso machine (scale build up).

Some questions I have:

How much Ca and Mg is bad for the machine without hurting the flavor? Is there a golden ratio for being machine safe and having a good taste?

Can other minerals be substituted for Ca and Mg so that scale does not occur?

In this website http://crystalquest.com/water-filter-re ... tridge.htm they claim they do custom filters. I've seen that they already offer one for coffee machines called "Phosphate crystal & Coconut Shell GAC

CRYSTAL QUEST® Phosphate crystal & Coconut Shell GAC cartridges are
designed to effectively reduce chlorine, bad taste, odor and certain organics
in addition to preventing scale build-up in down line appliances. These
cartridges are used with commercial food service coffee and tea brewing
machines, ice machines, beverage dispensing equipment, bottle-less water
coolers, water misters and many other similar applications

$27.50 free shipping

That Bunn filter looks like a 3m Cuno filter, re-branded perhaps.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/e ... Z1NHVR17gl

From my understanding the the 3M Cuno range is set at 25% by-pass and not adjustable.

Marshall wrote:That's unfortunate. Our tap water is 250.

Ah, Marshall, I have to apologize for any unintentional confusion I've caused. When I cited Tom's numbers on the Everpure filter that were poor on softening, I didn't catch that he wasn't using an ESO filter (the topic of this thread)--He's using a 4C filter which doesn't do softening, and Mark was just inspired by the Everpure system's compact installation (rather than the specific filter). Seems like the reduction Tom saw was maybe just from overall TDS reduction.

So it seems we know nothing more than the product literature about the ESO filter's mixing effectiveness.

Spot on. With the ESO filter running about $80, it didn't seem all that bad for a compact water treatment filter. I was hoping that someone on the forum may have used one or a similar one. The discussions on this thread have been very interesting. I currently have 3 of the generic 10" filter housings: pre-filter, softener, carbon. The combo units that do all this in one proprietary filter are significantly smaller. I change the filters yearly and I strongly doubt I will ever use their rated amount of water in my home system.

Mark

Time to talk to the pros. I called a friend who is a specialist in water treatment for coffee shops, who had the following advice:

1. Treatment for drip brewing and espresso are different and treatment in home use is different from commercial use, because (a) water sits longer in the boilers at home and (b) espresso subjects all the chemicals to higher temperatures and pressure and then runs the water through smaller tubes and orifices.

2. Non-adjustable (i.e. non-bypass) water softening is best avoided for drip coffee and espresso, unless the water is very hard, because water that is too soft will brew overly bitter coffee. He said, if taste is very important to you, "don't do it."

3. Scale inhibitors are not desirable for espresso machines, because they use phosphates which will sit too long in the boilers, lose their ability to inhibit the calcium crystal formation and, instead, form their own phosphate scale, which is even more difficult to remove than calcium carbonate.

4. Chlorine must be removed, because under heat and pressure in the boilers, it will form hydrochloric acid, which will damage the metal components.

His conclusion: unless the water is extremely hard, just use carbon filtration to remove chlorine and unpleasant flavors. Then descale from time to time, as needed. In home use this will not be very often. At 250 TDS in L.A. (where he said the hardness component was moderate), he thought this would be the way to go, unless I wanted to invest in an adjustable R.O. and remineralization system with bypass and had the space for it.

He also mentioned that an in-line descaling system was in the works from one of the major manufacturers, which would allow you to pop it in and out of the plumbing line when needed.

Hello, my name is Roy Parker and I work here at Everpure. I hope you don't mind, but I noticed your post and just wanted to add some additional information on the ESO. Ideally with espresso you like to have a TDS of about 100-150 ppm. The proper mineral content in the water brings out the best flavor. Some home baristas mistakingly use coffee filters for espresso brewing. Most coffee filters provide a membrane that captures particles such as dirt and sediment, a carbon (either in an extruded block form or as a granular activated carbon) that removes chemicals such as chlorine, and a scale inhibitor to protect the machine from becoming damaged by limescale buildup. The most common scale inhibitor is polyphosphate. Essentially this keeps the mineral "lubricated" do it doesn't adhere to the metal surfaces and heating elements in your machine. Phosphate is great for coffee brewing, but is not very effective with espresso machines due to the much higher temperatures utilized. That is why softening (also called ion exchange) is often used for espresso brewing (note that water that is softened with salt can't be used for coffee because the sodium will cause overextraction and excessive foaming). The ESO is a quick change "saltless" softening system with integrated filtration. It has a fixed bypass that allows some filtered water to blend with the softened water, helping to retain minerals. It comes in two sizes, a 21" and a 16" for undercounter placement. There is also a new product just released called the Everpure Claris that also provides ion exchange with filtration, but instead of a fixed bypass, it comes with a dial that allows you to specify how much mineral you want to retain in your espresso beverage. Because the ESO and the Claris soften without using salt, they can be used for both coffee and espresso. However, because these are commercial systems, they are higher priced than your conventional home filter systems. I hope your found this information useful.

Yes, thank you Roy. You seem to be largely in agreement with the gentleman I spoke with.

The issues for home espresso seem to be:
1. Avoiding cation (salt ion exchange) softening systems.
2. Avoiding over-softening (whichever softening, if any, is used)
3. Finding systems that will fit in available home kitchen or bar space.
4. Filtering out chlorine and other flavor contaminants.
5. Being cost-effective, where usage is likely to be less than 1 gallon a week. This last point would probably make some people laugh, since many of us spend ridiculously un-cost-effective amounts on our espresso machines.

Did I miss anything?