Hello,

I'm new to the forum, but I've been reading a lot of threads for some time and I'm looking for a new espresso machine. I've been drinking coffee for years and since the beginning of the year, I've been delving deeper into the coffee rabbit hole, especially since I got a new kitchen with more space.

Currently, I'm using a Sage Bambino, but I quickly realized that this machine was probably a mistake for me because I'm hitting its limits. Not too long ago, I had my first experience with really good espresso which was lightly roasted and it had a super fruity, boozy and sweet taste. So, I thought I could achieve the same espresso at home, but now I'm kind of stuck and nowhere near on that great espresso. Unfortunately, the Bambino only occasionally delivers the espresso I desire because it lacks the features I probably need.

I'm, therefore, looking for a machine that can maintain a constant temperature, comes with pre-infusion, and allows me to froth milk at the same time. I mainly drink Cappuccinos or Flat Whites made with plant-based milk like Oatly Barista. As for the milk frother, I'm currently relatively open, as I find my Bambino sufficient for now and don't have high demands as long as it can match the Bambino's performance. The most important thing is that it can handle light roasts well, as these are my favorite and the beans that i'm gonna use the most.

Currently, I have three machines in mind that, according to my research, could be suitable for me:

Ascaso Steel Duo PID (Very well-built, stable temperature, allows pre-infusion)
Rancilio Silvia Pro X (Also good, but I've read that pre-infusion might not be as good due to not building up pressure, and the drip tray is impractical)
Lelit Elizabeth (Has probably all the features I'm looking for, but not as well-built, and accessories are low quality)

Some people told me I should go with the Elizabeth, but honestly I'm a little bit intimidated by all the options for Pre Infusion the machine offers and it's also the one with the ugliest design for me. Will I be able to reach the same goals with the other machines or do you guys think that the Pre Infusion options are necessary?

Other things that are important for me:
- max budget of 2000€ in germany
-machine should heat up within 15min if possible, not necessary tho

For the grinder, I'm currently using the Timemore C3, but I'll aslo be upgrading that soon. Initially I was planning on getting something like a Varia VS3, but after some research I found out that Flat Burr Grinders are probably the way to go for light roasts, so I thought about getting a DF64v Grinder, but some people told me that you're sacrificing body and the coffee doesn't cut through in milk drinks with oatmilk.

It's hard not to recommend a Sage Dual Boiler in your price range. It does everything you want and w/e you save you should add to your grinder costs.

The DB will give you the temperatures and temperature stability you need to repeatedly pull good shots from light roasts. It has simple pre-infusion right out of the box, which will help accommodate grinder + puck prep irregularities until those are dialed in. When you feel confident enough, you can mod it with the Slayer mod to get full profiling. It does an excellent job at steaming milk.

Lelit Bianca might be better for your needs. I heard they are much cheaper in the EU than the US. I purchased (imported) mine from the UK for a little bit more than your max budget.

So far, you have gotten responses to the questions that you have asked, but I wonder if you are really asking the right questions to get the goal that you want.

First up, you have a machine that comes with pressurised filter baskets and non-pressurised filter baskets. If you are using the pressurised filter baskets, the first thing you need to do is to try it with the more ordinary ones if you haven't already.

You have a timemore C3. I haven't used it, nor have I used your machine, but I think it's possible, perhaps even likely, that you will get a greater impact from upgrading your grinder than you will from upgrading your machine. So I think you would be better served getting the grinder first and trying that with your current machine to see how you go. Getting a 64mm flat burr grinder seems like a good choice because lately there seems to have been a lot of 64mm aftermarket burrs made, so that would give you some ability to change your taste experience economically.

djeftones wrote:I thought about getting a DF64v Grinder, but some people told me that you're sacrificing body and the coffee doesn't cut through in milk drinks with oatmilk.

Well if you wait around long enough, someone will be along to post the opposite of what everyone else has posted. The truth in coffee is often that you don't get to just increase all of the desirable characteristics; often it is a tradeoff of increasing one at the cost of decreasing another, or increasing an undesirable characteristic. Of course, a lot of coffee information originates with people with something to sell, or people who want to justify their purchases to themselves and have a limited frame of reference, so the bad aspects tend to get omitted. So the first question is ... relative to what? Often, it seems to me that when people increase body, strength or mouthfeel there is usually a corresponding loss of aroma and clarity of flavour, like Jeff says. There may be more presence in the cup, but it may be more muddy and generic. I don't know what burrs come standard with the DF64v, but if they are standard mazzer espresso burrs or italmills, you might find that you might want to end up changing these to something that gives some more aroma and clarity of flavour.

As for the machines, I'll leave that to others to comment in more detail, since I'm not sure what the relative pricings of everything are. I had the Breville 820 for a while and I think if it hadn't had some repair issues with it, I probably would have been happy with it, and probably would have ended up pairing it with a grinder that cost many times more than the machine!

Following as I have similar tastes and I am debating on a barista express. Thoughts?

megamixman wrote:It's hard not to recommend a Sage Dual Boiler in your price range. It does everything you want and w/e you save you should add to your grinder costs.

The DB will give you the temperatures and temperature stability you need to repeatedly pull good shots from light roasts. It has simple pre-infusion right out of the box, which will help accommodate grinder + puck prep irregularities until those are dialed in. When you feel confident enough, you can mod it with the Slayer mod to get full profiling. It does an excellent job at steaming milk.

This. It'll destroy any of those machines mentioned above especially on light roast let alone temp stability, that thing was right there with my modded GS3 scacing. People have argued that the Rancilio PI is just as good, like u wut?!? I don't know where they come up with that, same for Elizabeth and it's short PI. Not even remotley or fractionally on the level of a BDB stock PI system. You can literally set it at 55% pressure and hold manually as long as you want, hell pull a shot the entire time at that or whatever setting if you want. That's not even getting into Slayer mode. Sure I've had maintenance, and I just had to do that annoying steam boiler fill o-ring
But I bought it used like 2 years ago to play with and see the hyper, thing has to be like 7 or 8 years old now and thousands and thousands of shots, like over 6 or 7k have to check counter again. Also brass Ulka and Vibiemme Opv, runs so smooth with that.

I was just pulling one at 73% pressure for 28 seconds and then ramp to 7 bar and taper down to 6 bar to finish...... Try doing that on a Rancilio or Elizabeth, let me know how it goes lol.

I don't know why so many sleep on that PI feature of the BDB.

Far as the DF. I had an OG DF64 when released. Never cared for it, wonky as hell (a Vario with flap in chute flipped will run circles around an DF al day long for "Single dosing" ease). I had to mod, align, still wonky and the bellow would blow dust or random grinds out. I also had HU burr, mehh. I did not like the Ital burr at all even on med or darker roast. Imo my steel burr Vario and ceramic one both I've had since like 2011, both aligned, would run circles around a DF64 for taste and ease. Though I primarily use HG1 Prime. Even had steel burr Vario side by side Monolith Flat, it's crazy how good those tiny Baratza burr sets perform.

I know they updated the DF multiple times but I haven't used any of the newer models.

Echoing others here re: allocate majority of your budget to grinder as opposed to machine, especially if you're chasing better light roasts.

My wife and I are hardly enthusiasts, but we've been making espresso at home for ourselves for over 10 years, myself for closer to 15. We've had a variety of machines and grinders over that time, and as someone who drinks light roast espresso exclusively....If I had a $2500ish USD budget to build the most light roast-friendly setup, I'd buy a BDB (Sage in EU) and throw everything else at the biggest flat burr grinder I could afford.

For grinders, look into older used Monolith Flat or Flat MAX grinders. With the quality of life revisions the past year, older models have gone down a lot in price. Older models still grind beans just as well.