The Espresso Machine MOST of You Should Buy - Page 5

#41: Post by **cskorton** » March 13th, 2021, 2:13 pm

As a Londinium R owner, I'm super interested to read the follow up posts! My experiences with my Londinium R:

Pros: So many variable to play with, dead simple operation, and forgiveness factor. It's amazing how changing preinfusion pressure and length brings out certain characteristics of the bean. Pulling shots at 1.3 bar preinfusion brings out the front end notes, especially brightness and sweetness. Body is different, very light and delicate (think soufflé). At 2 bar or 3 bar preinfusion pressure, the same beans result in a much heavier body that highlights the base/ending notes (namely, chocolate). But you lose a little bit of flavor clarity and brightness, IMO. For light roasts, this works quite well. I'm starting however, to move away from light roasts and sticking with medium+.

Still can't quite figure out the benefit of preinfusion. For super light roasts, yes absolutely. But for everything else, I'm not quite sure anything over 10 seconds max is beneficial (frankly 5-7 seconds is better, sometimes even 3). In my experience, it tends to wash out the flavor, making the shot somewhat watery, bitter, and over extracted tasting. But don't read too much into this as ymmv.

Cons: Too many variables, ha! I can easily go through a whole bag and get sick from the caffeine by testing various preinfusion pressures, lengths, shot ratios, etc... Sometimes I wonder if having less options would be better so I don't drive myself to insanity! At the end of the day though, all resulting shots are good, just different. I also hate the vibration pump sound (my machine is from 2017). I'd consider a Bianca or even a Ponte Vecchio or other small lever simply because of the noise.

#42: Post by **pcrussell50** » March 13th, 2021, 2:57 pm

Ah yes. Group pressure. I keep forgetting and take for granted how much I refer to mine.

-Peter

#43: Post by **RyanP** » March 13th, 2021, 3:04 pm

cskorton wrote:As a Londinium R owner, I'm super interested to read the follow up posts! My experiences with my Londinium R:

Pros: So many variable to play with, dead simple operation, and forgiveness factor. It's amazing how changing preinfusion pressure and length brings out certain characteristics of the bean. Pulling shots at 1.3 bar preinfusion brings out the front end notes, especially brightness and sweetness. Body is different, very light and delicate (think soufflé). At 2 bar or 3 bar preinfusion pressure, the same beans result in a much heavier body that highlights the base/ending notes (namely, chocolate). But you lose a little bit of flavor clarity and brightness, IMO. For light roasts, this works quite well. I'm starting however, to move away from light roasts and sticking with medium+.

Still can't quite figure out the benefit of preinfusion. For super light roasts, yes absolutely. But for everything else, I'm not quite sure anything over 10 seconds max is beneficial (frankly 5-7 seconds is better, sometimes even 3). In my experience, it tends to wash out the flavor, making the shot somewhat watery, bitter, and over extracted tasting. But don't read too much into this as ymmv.

Cons: Too many variables, ha! I can easily go through a whole bag and get sick from the caffeine by testing various preinfusion pressures, lengths, shot ratios, etc... Sometimes I wonder if having less options would be better so I don't drive myself to insanity! At the end of the day though, all resulting shots are good, just different. I also hate the vibration pump sound (my machine is from 2017). I'd consider a Bianca or even a Ponte Vecchio or other small lever simply because of the noise.

As a fellow LR owner who has owned manual levers (Strietman, Olympia Cremina), DE1, and classic pump machines I think you are rather dead on with your assessment.

I don't think the LR is the only machine that fits the bill, but I do think that paired with a good grinder it offers everything one would need to pull consistently great espresso with a wide variety of SOs and roast levels. The only reason to purchase another machine would be the fun of just trying something new or satisfying your curiosity.

I also agree with your assessment of the different PI pressures as well as the benefit of not getting swept up by playing with all the variables. I do have a feeling these results might vary depending on the grinder being used. However, with the LR the vast majority of the time you should be able to keep everything within a pretty narrow window of variables and have a new coffee dialed in within a couple of shots. There are of course occasional outlier coffees that prove to be more challenging.

#44: Post by **another_jim** » March 13th, 2021, 3:17 pm

Randy G. wrote:When I read the patent and created my E61 anniversary poster I first thought that the needle 'valve' at the top was it was for flow control but it is not threaded into the top cap. ...

Great find! That makes much more sense: once they learned that back flushing worked equally well to clear the group, they left it off.

BTW, I for one use the flow control for every coffee I grind ultra fine. It makes the whole process of getting very high extractions for these coffees a lot less hit or miss. Oddly, I find that this approach is not just good for third wave roasts, but also for Italian robusta blends.

In any case, I love that the whole mystique of flow control has gone from $10K ubermachines and hard to find (and for some, and use) levers to everyday $2K to $3K E61 boxes and insurgent machines like the DE1. It's up to each user to decide whether they prefer the imprecise but in the moment control of a lever or paddle, or the precise but all preprogrammed -- your shot is screwed if you got it wrong -- control of the DE1.

#45: Post by **pcrussell50** » March 13th, 2021, 4:03 pm

1) Londinium: rapid fill of the headspace, (21ml/s flow rate from HX to group measured by my mate with an LR24), any PI pressure you like, from 1-6 bar, classic spring lever decline from zero flow peak at 7.5 bar.

2) Slayer: slow fill of headspace, soaky and bloomy style of PI, pressure peak at 9 bar (unless you adjusted it down), instead of steady tapering decline, you can step it down in a single step back to pre brew (strangely this still seems to capture a lot of the benefit of the steady spring decline)

3) Full needle control machines like Bianca, BDB using needle, GS/3 with needle added, etc...: Easy to do slow soaky bloomy PI like Slayer, harder to do instant fill like Londinium unless gicleur removed and plumbed, or gicleur removed and mondo pumping power, easy to set max brew pressure anywhere you like, (if you have a group pressure gauge), including Londinium 7.5, or "traditional 9'ish", control the decline any way you like including none at all

DE: cannot do "instant fill" but maybe 8ml/s is fast enough? For the rest, you hope the program you built is compatible with the puck you built (grind and prep). If it's not, you adjust your program or your prep for the next shot. Get it right and enjoy the consistency until the beans run out or aging changes how they handle

Me? I have a category 3 machine with Londinium-like 21ml/s fill capability. I find that the Londinium profile: 21ml/s fill, any PI pressure from 1-5 bar, extraction peak at 7.5 bar, decline from there, is the most forgiving/fewest sink shots, even if a successful Slayer profile shot is just as good.

-Peter

#46: Post by **RyanP** » March 13th, 2021, 4:16 pm

pcrussell50 wrote: Me? I have a category 3 machine with Londinium-like 21ml/s fill capability. I find that the Londinium profile: 21ml/s fill, any PI pressure from 1-5 bar, extraction peak at 7.5 bar, decline from there, is the most forgiving/fewest sink shots, even if a successful Slayer profile shot is just as good.

-Peter

You and I are speaking the same language.

#47: Post by **pcrussell50** » March 13th, 2021, 4:28 pm

RyanP wrote: You and I are speaking the same language.

I learned a lot from my mate with the LR24.

-Peter

#48: Post by **DaveB** » March 13th, 2021, 4:29 pm

pcrussell50 wrote:Ah yes. Group pressure. I keep forgetting and take for granted how much I refer to mine.

It's great that the BDB comes stock with a gauge that is actually useful!

#49: Post by **mmntip** » March 13th, 2021, 4:33 pm

With the group head controller the DE1 is NOT a machine which works solely on the preprogrammed setting. You can use it during a shot to adapt the pressure when you see fit. It works much in the same way as the paddle on the Bianca.

March 13th, 2021, 5:13 pm

pcrussell50 wrote: 2) Slayer: slow fill of headspace, soaky and bloomy style of PI, pressure peak at 9 bar (unless you adjusted it down), instead of steady tapering decline, you can step it down in a single step back to pre brew (strangely this still seems to capture a lot of the benefit of the steady spring decline)

-Peter

This a just to clarify for others than Peter that don't know the Slayer dynamics and how they work, and to compare the other options here at 40% of the price. Quotes below directly from the manual..

Slayer's brew actuator allows for three positions: "off", "pre-brew", and "full brew". The grouphead is in the "off" position when the brew actuator is moved all the way right. The "pre-brew" setting is activated when the actuator is moved to the middle of the group. "Full brew" is achieved when the actuator is moved all the way left.

Reduced Flow: Muting Acidity
Undesirable acidity can be softened by moving the actuator back to the middle position at the end of the extraction process

Flow rate - At the studio, the flow rate is set at 40 grams per 30 seconds and correlates with the duration of pre-brew: increased flow rate will lead to a shorter pre-brew time and decreased flow rate will lead to a longer pre-brew time.

The steady stream decline is maybe 5 seconds. I will have to watch more closely. The pressure is reduced from your max to something more than when no PF is there. I think it's about 5bar and would vary based on other factors.

Whatever the magic, it works well.