ECM Synchronika or La Marzocco Linea Mini - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
JayBeck (original poster)
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Joined: 7 years ago

#11: Post by JayBeck (original poster) »

Kryptonicspb wrote:Ok profiling isn't your thing so for sure the linea mini. For me personally owning a db e61: moving from a pro 500 to a ecm synk, would be a lateral move. The pro 500 to a linea mini would sit very well in my mind as an upgrade.
That's my gut but I'd love to see if others have had tried both t comment on espresso quality.

boost
Posts: 450
Joined: 9 years ago

#12: Post by boost »

Just a couple things to note about your concerns on the mini.
Yes the steam wand is non insulated but the linea has overall enclosed steam valve and group head. Keep in mind that the E61 brew group stays hot all the time and so does the exposed steam/water valve. You are more likely to touch those by accident rather than while steaming milk on the mini, which actually cools down rather quick anyway once you finish steaming.
If this such a deal breaker to you then you can always insulate it with 8mm teflon tubing insert which is what most E61 prosumer uses anyway. Real dual walled steam tube are mostly on high end commercial machine like Synesso and I think on new GS3/Strada.

I am not aware that the pressure relief valve failing issue, if you are talking about the boiler safety valve those are part of yearly maintenance. It is the same parts that is used in many machines and I suspect it is more critical in commercial application where rather large steam boiler is used.

As to whether the $1500 extra is noticeable in cup, that is harder question to answer.

interseismic
Posts: 71
Joined: 9 years ago

#13: Post by interseismic »

I have a black matte LMLM and absolutely love it. It can make top-notch espresso, and in my opinion, leads to extremely consistent results from one shot to the next. I have never burned myself on the steam wand, and have never wished it had a no-burn wand either. The steam capability is ridiculous, and I have no problems with the stock tip. The vendor even lowered the steam pressure because they thought the recommended settings were too much for most people.

The ergonomics on the machine are as good as it gets. The hot water spigot is perfectly placed so that you can immediately clean a portafilter after dumping a shot. The drip tray slides out from underneath the machine, and is held in place by a magnet. This makes it extremely convenient to refill if you choose to use the tank.

I would say that what I like most about the machine is that it has allowed me to forget about the infinite combinations of espresso variables, and just enjoy the coffee.

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jammin
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#14: Post by jammin »

JayBeck wrote:That's my gut but I'd love to see if others have had tried both t comment on espresso quality.
I have not owned a LMLM but I have owned a pro 500, GS/3 MP & a Speedster. I would not consider the Linea Mini after using these machines that offer line pressure p/i.

I often hear the temp stability argument as the only crutch for the LMLM. Yes it's a saturated group, but does it not have a .17l brew boiler? The Synk has a .75l brew boiler with a 1200 watt element. For $4,500 the Mini has a plastic knob to adjust brew temp as where the Synk is a precision PID within 1/10th of a degree.

RikC
Posts: 263
Joined: 7 years ago

#15: Post by RikC »

I can make a big summation about pros and cons (I've done so recently in this topic: Do you guys think the E61 grouphead is outdated?). I can also simply state that ever since I bought a LMLM in May this year I just love it. There hasn't been a moment that I thought 'hey is my machine the variable today'? It does the same thing, everytime, solidly and with high precission: this is a serious tool for making seriously good coffee if you know how to. Biggest expensive of my life so far besides my house (even with a discount on the machine, but I live in Europe so that really depends on you distributor). Yet there hasn't been a single day that I thought 'how much did I spend?'. The LMLM is actually my first machine since I wanted to avoid upgraditis as well, just go straight for the machine you really want if you can afford it was the thought. The Synchronika was also on my shortlist but there the price did bother me even though it's less expensive.

The steam wand is not no burn since... well how many commercial machines are there with a no burn wand? The LMLM basicaly is a commercial machine in a pint size package. Besides that a no burn wand reduces steam pressure it's also quite likely that this has to do with the machines NSF certification for use in commercial settings. I have not burned myself once in over a half year of use now. The double joint suspension (not gimball unlike most machines) also makes that difficult to do so in pracice. My only concern was whether it wouldn't be a problem when my little one year old nephew was visiting with his parents. But then I folded the wand back so it wouldn't stand out. Any accidental turn of the steam know would lead to a discharge in the drip tray. Also the hot water tap can be slid back in the same manner: yes, it is also on a joint. It's little things like that that make you aware that the ergonomics of the machine are really well thought out, based on years of experience. Everything on the machine is there for a reason.

Actually I had the pleasure of making espresso on a LM Strada EP last week at my local coffee shop and the experience is remarkebly similar besides the pressure being variable: a joy!

So no drawbacks as compared to other machines in this segment in everyday use? Well one. The one that also appears to be -the- major concession for making it suitable for the home market. The internal water reservoir is too small when you don't plumb it in with the LM kit that allows you to do so. Especially if you rinse and backflush after every use like me to keep your machine tidy. This is quite annoying because you have to remove the drip tray first to get to it and there is no way to observe the water level until the low water indicator comes in.

I went on a slightly alternative route to solve this problem: there is a silicone line between the reservoir and the pump. I disconnected it and installed a T-piece inbetween. This leads to an external reservoir at the same height as the machine so the low water sensor in the machine remains operational. With this the water level is easily observed and refills are done without removing the drip tray (which itself is more than big enough). The capacity more than doubled in this way and the low water light didn't come on again ever sice I did this mod months ago. Details are in th e LMLM user experience thread. A pic with my setup and the reservoir to the left shown below here.



Well, I've rambled on for long enough now. I think it's clear what my preferences are :mrgreen:

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jammin
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#16: Post by jammin »

RikC wrote: There hasn't been a moment that I thought 'hey is my machine the varable today'?
That is literally a you problem. There isn't a machine out there (in this class) with variables that you can't bypass and make it do the same thing shot after shot.
RikC wrote: Actually I had the pleasure of making Espresso on a LM Strada EP last week at my local coffee shop and the experience is remarkebly similar besides the pressure being variable: a joy!
I fail to see how using the Strada to it's potential is is remotely similar. It's disingenuous to purvey these different type of machines as peers.
RikC wrote:The steam wand is not no burn since... well how many commercial machines are there with a no burn wand?
it's not difficult to pull the silicon tube out of any "no burn" wand.

RikC
Posts: 263
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#17: Post by RikC »

Well jammin, if you read my post than you'd notice I specificaly wrote it from my own perspective. I can only speak for myself in how I experience it. Feel free to add your thought from your experiences with machines I'd say...

JayBeck (original poster)
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#18: Post by JayBeck (original poster) »

jammin wrote:I have not owned a LMLM but I have owned a pro 500, GS/3 MP & a Speedster. I would not consider the Linea Mini after using these machines that offer line pressure p/i.

I often hear the temp stability argument as the only crutch for the LMLM. Yes it's a saturated group, but does it not have a .17l brew boiler? The Synk has a .75l brew boiler with a 1200 watt element. For $4,500 the Mini has a plastic knob to adjust brew temp as where the Synk is a precision PID within 1/10th of a degree.
I forgot to add line pressure pre infusion to my list. I 'pre-wet' on my Pro 500 and it's super easy to do. But You can really control pre infusion on the Synchronika and you can't on the LMLM. With the purported 'temp stability' of the Pro 700 / ECM, I'm really curious as to where the 'better tasting espresso' comes in to play. Hence why I'm asking the awesome HB community for some more insight.

Chris65
Posts: 50
Joined: 6 years ago

#19: Post by Chris65 »

Full disclosure I don't own either of these machines but I have read all the posts about them because I am in a similar position as you. From what I can tell is that once you get to the level of the ecm synchronika the differences in the cup of higher end machines becomes less and less as you move up. So I doubt there will be a $1500 improvement in the espresso of the lmlm but that doesn't mean there won't be an improvement at all.

Also it seems that every post asking questions similar to yours never has a clear answer, which in my mind shows it's a personal choice. Where I do think you will see the difference is the steaming powering and possibly the reliability of the lmlm because it can be used commercially (but again it's not likely the ecm is bad in either of these categories). In the end I think it comes down to looks and what is more important to you because each of these machines do one or two things a little better than the other (eg. steaming of lmlm or pre infusion of synchronika)

Again just want to say I don't have either machine so take my opinion with a grain of salt. It might be beneficial for you to find a showroom where you can go and play around both machines (or if location is an issue maybe there is a forum member near you who would be willing to talk with you and show you their machine).

I do want to thank you though because you have given a great outline of the differences of the two machines and have helped me with my decision :D

Kryptonicspb
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#20: Post by Kryptonicspb »

JayBeck wrote:That's my gut but I'd love to see if others have had tried both t comment on espresso quality.
I feel like you would notice the difference in manufacturer design choices, daily user interaction, and visual appearance; before noticing their difference in shot quality. Both are top knotch at producing espresso, and navigating all types of roasts. There is a reason LM designed the boiler/brewgroup and paddle with 1 second preinfusion. If something about the design needed to be changed, or improved, it would have; and that applies to both machines! In my opinion, ECM put together the absolute highest quality, well-thought-out e61 DB, in its class.


My guess is very few people have owned, and put both machines through their paces (because of the model release dates.) I'd be surprised if anyone who started with a LMLM, later moved to the Synk to use line pressure preinfusion. You're more likely to find owners of e61 db, "upgrading" to a LMLM. As an owner of a V2B, I would not move toward a LMLM, thinking I would get a better quality shot out of it. My own skill limits me more than either machine. If I ever were to buy a LMLM, It would be for the other differences.

Buuuuut in my particular case, I'm thinking about moving to a spring lever to actually experience different shot flavors :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: