Was looking at the ECM Classika machines, and see there it now comes with a PID version, and a non-PID, decent price difference. I was wondering if the PID is necessary with Eric's thermometer installed? My thought process is that the temperature reading from the thermometer would be more useful than the PID (I rarely steam, so temperature control of the steam is meaningless to me), but on the other hand...

Of course there will be a variety of opinions here... but... I just moved up from a stock Rancilio Silvia to a used QM Alexia without pid. Just installed Eric's thermometer a week ago. The E61 is a dream compared to ms. Silvia with the preinfusion etc. but the thermometer gives me all I need to pull consistently great shots. Easy to install and far less expensive. No affiliation at all. Just my experience on this espresso adventure.

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The Classika machines are a little unique because they are E-61, but single boiler with no HX. So if you want to try cooler or hotter shots you can't fudge the temperature the way you might with an HX, with a simple change in your cooling flush/wait technique - so that's why the PID is nice. Since you don't steam you would use it like you would a dual boiler.

The Erics thermometer might be useful though, and some folks do use them on dual boiler machines. It would tell you if the group is cooler or hotter than normal, which could happen if:
- machine not fully warmed up
- stalled or clogged thermosyphon
- room temp changes and drafts are cooling the group more than usual
- group is hot due to recent running at steam temperature

It may also help to tell you if/when the group is at equilibrium temperature after a PID change.

I made an argument for having the EricS and the PID, but neglected the argument for the EricS and the old (non-PID) one, and I noticed that the PID will run you an extra 300 bucks over the plain Classika II. On an HX I'd say it's certainly not worth it, but on the Classika it is a tougher call. If you don't experiment with different temperatures you can easily get by without it - just set the pStat thermostat* to your coffee and liking. The temperature band accuracy of the PID as compared to the fluctuations you get in thermostat* control is really no biggie because it's all modulated by that big hunk of brass in the E-61.

And if you do want to fuss with different brew temps, I suppose that with an EricS thermometer you might be able to surf the temp a little - i.e., set the thermostat* a bit low and do a heating flush/wait of the group using the thermometer as a guide. Just an idea.

* Edit correction: As Eric pointed out below, the Classika II ships with an adjustable thermostat and not a pStat. Here's a parts picture: http://www.1st-line.com/store/pc/ECM-Ge ... a-d451.htm

How would you adjust and set the temp without the PID? I have a similar SBDU. I certainly find Eric's thermo useful as a data point / reference but can't imagine not having the PID. To me it's more important of the two.

Eric's thermo was highly useful while getting used to my machine and also helped me understand I needed to adjust my temp offset. So it's certainly still useful.

I agree that there exists a large price differential between the PID and non-PID Classika (a very rare bird nowadays). I would put the advertised price for the non-PID Classika into the "garage sale" category. Temperature adjustment on the non-PID version is, most likely, by means of an adjustable Prodigy TR 86 thermostat.

The manual for the thermometer (and other useful info) is on my crude FTP site below my sig.

erics wrote:Temperature adjustment on the non-PID version is, most likely, by means of an adjustable Prodigy TR 86 thermostat.

Good point! And the parts list at 1st line confirms that. Looking closer at that parts diagram I noticed that the gauge on the front is a pump pressure gauge and not a boiler pressure gauge, so when adjusting the thermostat on the Classika II you would just have the thermostat knob position to go by. With the EricS thermometer on this machine you would tweak the thermostat knob and gauge the magnitude of those adjustments based in the idle temp at the group. Certainly not an on-the-fly temp adjustment, but OK if your routine involves always pulling at the same boiler temperature. For an example on a similar machine, see Quick Mill La Certa E61 - Recommended Thermostat Temperature

I almost went with this machine myself, as I wanted to have control of temperature. Decided to try a lever instead, but let's keep this on-point.

I think you should go for both the PID and the thermometer. Remember that the boiler is a brew temp when brewing, not steam temp. You can adjust the temp via PID for different beans to find what you like, and confirm with the thermometer. I like the simplicity and focus on good espresso, as long as you rarely need to steam milk.

Enjoy!

Thanks, all, that helps.

I think my thought process after using a Silvia for so long (left with ex in divorce) and being used to the temp surfing of it, an E61 single boiler with the thermometer would allow me to control temperatures and experiment with different temps as the PID does, with the flush and wait technique. Kind of like a precise Silvia.