E61 with Flow Control or Lelit Bianca v3
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TundraRunner
In the market for an E61 with flow control. My debate comes down to 2-3 choices: LUCCA M58 with Clive's flow control device or a Bianca v3. Think I will go with the black version of either, but it's not a requirement. My debate comes down to preferring the aesthetics of the LUCCA, as well as being a little apprehensive about some of the newer software-based features on the Bianca and their impact on long-term reliability. The only other contender would be a profitec pro 700 with flow control, as I prefer it aesthetically over the synchronika, but I'm just not sure there's a good reason for me that it beats out the other two.
Essentially I think it comes down to form vs function and if I will use the low flow/preinfusion enough on the Bianca enough to justify it over the preferred aesthetics of the LUCCA. Anything else to consider about the functionality of either machine? My preference is medium and medium-dark roasts, but I do enjoy more fruit-forward varieties from time to time.
Experience or perspective between the two is appreciated. Just not sure if there's much else that I'm not considering on the difference between a standard e61 db with flow control like the LUCCA vs the Bianca
Essentially I think it comes down to form vs function and if I will use the low flow/preinfusion enough on the Bianca enough to justify it over the preferred aesthetics of the LUCCA. Anything else to consider about the functionality of either machine? My preference is medium and medium-dark roasts, but I do enjoy more fruit-forward varieties from time to time.
Experience or perspective between the two is appreciated. Just not sure if there's much else that I'm not considering on the difference between a standard e61 db with flow control like the LUCCA vs the Bianca
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Jeff
- Team HB
I haven't used either, but my Quick Mill purchased from Chris' Coffee service ran smoothly for years and years and their service department saved me hours and well over $100 in parts.
Lelit impresses me as about the only European non-niche manufacturer that is doing any kind of innovation. I think the v3 has been out around 6 months now. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard of any glitches of significance.
The "usual suspects" to me are the Bianca, Synchronika, or Pro 700. Chris' Coffee has worked with Quick Mill over the years and the https://www.chriscoffee.com/products/quick-mill-sorella may be a new competitor in that group. All but the Bianca would "need" a flow kit added.
Medium and medium-dark roasts can sometimes benefit from a declining pressure profile. I understand dark roasts can as well, but don't have recent, first-hand experience with them.
Lelit impresses me as about the only European non-niche manufacturer that is doing any kind of innovation. I think the v3 has been out around 6 months now. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard of any glitches of significance.
The "usual suspects" to me are the Bianca, Synchronika, or Pro 700. Chris' Coffee has worked with Quick Mill over the years and the https://www.chriscoffee.com/products/quick-mill-sorella may be a new competitor in that group. All but the Bianca would "need" a flow kit added.
Medium and medium-dark roasts can sometimes benefit from a declining pressure profile. I understand dark roasts can as well, but don't have recent, first-hand experience with them.
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TundraRunner (original poster)
Thanks Jeff. I think I'm leaning towards the LUCCA, I don't know that the features on the Bianca are a must have or that I would use them 3-6 months in, but I really love the aesthetics of both the chrome and black LUCCA. I've seen a lot of people on this forum in the same boat, having owned a QM machine for 10+ years without many issues, they seem like solid machines. When purchasing with preinstalled flow control, the main/only miss vs Bianca is the new low flow and automated preinfusion, but I think being able to use the paddle for that will be enough + having a machine I love to see on my bar
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BaristaBob
Head over to a recent YouTube video produced by Sprometheus on the Bianca v3. If you haven't seen it already, it's a decent evaluation of the machine, IMO.
Personally, I'm leaning toward this machine. I'd prefer a Sanremo YOU but at 7K it's way over my budget. Bianca is wife approved, and so is the price!
Personally, I'm leaning toward this machine. I'd prefer a Sanremo YOU but at 7K it's way over my budget. Bianca is wife approved, and so is the price!
Bob "hello darkness my old friend..I've come to drink you once again"
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beanman
Clive has a free Acaia Lunar scale right now for $1,999+ sales, so buy now!
I'm sure both are great machines, and yes, all the electronics on these top tier machines are most likely the piece that will give problems (and maybe be obsolete in 50 years unlike the other basic parts).
Water source - will you use the reservoir, or a plumbed in water line?
If water line:
- Some E61 machines prevent all water flow until the pump is on -- so flow control would be used to control pre-infusion.
- Others, like my ECM Synchronika allow water to flow when the brew lever is raised part way (but pump not on). So pre-infusion is controlled by water line pressure and how long you wait to engage the brew pump. When I installed the flow control on my Sync, I did not change the lower spring, so mine still pre-infuses with the water line pressure.
Power switches - I like the 2 switches on the M58. I turn the steam on and off every day, so the M58 having both on the front would be very convenient. I think the Bianca uses the PID to shut off the steam boiler - a deal breaker for me.
PID display location -- M58 has it at the top, so much easier to see. The ECM and Bianca have it lower, so harder to see the shot timer, or PID temp adjusting. Some say cabinet temp is higher at the cabinet top, so the PID gets exposed to hotter temps. Pressure gauges are rarely looked at once set, so having them lower isn't bad in my opinion.
All the polished steel on my Sync looks nice when clean (which it is not very often
). So black would be nice.
Steam and water joysticks are awesome! When shopping, I was leaning towards knobs. Glad I got the Synch with the joysticks.
I'm sure both are great machines, and yes, all the electronics on these top tier machines are most likely the piece that will give problems (and maybe be obsolete in 50 years unlike the other basic parts).
Water source - will you use the reservoir, or a plumbed in water line?
If water line:
- Some E61 machines prevent all water flow until the pump is on -- so flow control would be used to control pre-infusion.
- Others, like my ECM Synchronika allow water to flow when the brew lever is raised part way (but pump not on). So pre-infusion is controlled by water line pressure and how long you wait to engage the brew pump. When I installed the flow control on my Sync, I did not change the lower spring, so mine still pre-infuses with the water line pressure.
Power switches - I like the 2 switches on the M58. I turn the steam on and off every day, so the M58 having both on the front would be very convenient. I think the Bianca uses the PID to shut off the steam boiler - a deal breaker for me.
PID display location -- M58 has it at the top, so much easier to see. The ECM and Bianca have it lower, so harder to see the shot timer, or PID temp adjusting. Some say cabinet temp is higher at the cabinet top, so the PID gets exposed to hotter temps. Pressure gauges are rarely looked at once set, so having them lower isn't bad in my opinion.
All the polished steel on my Sync looks nice when clean (which it is not very often
). So black would be nice. Steam and water joysticks are awesome! When shopping, I was leaning towards knobs. Glad I got the Synch with the joysticks.
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loscorrales
List of european companies that innovate with pressure profilling machines:Jeff wrote:I haven't used either, but my Quick Mill purchased from Chris' Coffee service ran smoothly for years and years and their service department saved me hours and well over $100 in parts.
Lelit impresses me as about the only European non-niche manufacturer that is doing any kind of innovation. I think the v3 has been out around 6 months now. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't heard of any glitches of significance.
The "usual suspects" to me are the Bianca, Synchronika, or Pro 700. Chris' Coffee has worked with Quick Mill over the years and the https://www.chriscoffee.com/products/quick-mill-sorella may be a new competitor in that group. All but the Bianca would "need" a flow kit added.
Medium and medium-dark roasts can sometimes benefit from a declining pressure profile. I understand dark roasts can as well, but don't have recent, first-hand experience with them.
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