Drawn to lever espresso machines. Help a newbie choose? - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
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[creative nickname]
Posts: 1832
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#11: Post by [creative nickname] »

I own both a Strega and a Pro 800. The Strega used to be my home machine, but it now lives at my office. I run the Strega off its tank and have the Pro 800 fully plumbed in.

It is hard to overstate how simple and pleasant it is to use the Pro 800 in its fully-plumbed configuration. It is the quietest machine I've ever had, with no clicking of a pressurestat or pump sound when the boiler is refilled. The PID is easy to access and any changes take effect surprisingly quickly. I love that the boiler is insulated, especially during our long Florida summers, where I must pay extra for air conditioning to counteract a boiler's waste heat. The espresso is fantastic, and I can easily pull shots ranging from light roasts to full city with delicious results. For reference, most of my shots are classic singles at a 1:3 ratio, but I also pull doubles, shorter shots and longer shots when that makes sense for a coffee or my mood.

The Strega, by comparison, is loud and less nicely finished. The pump configuration does let you play around a lot with preinfusion, and with practice you can adjust shot-pulling temp very well through timed flushes. The downside is that this uses a lot of water, which is no big deal with a fully plumbed machine but adds a bit more frustration when you are manually filling a tank and emptying a drip tray. Because the pump fills the chamber all the way up to full pressure, the maximum shot volume with a single pull is higher on the Strega. I typically max out around 50g of output with a double on the Pro 800, but can reach 64 or more with the Strega if desired.

Once you learn the ins and outs of either machine, you can flexibly use different levels of preinfusion with either. It will be a bit more work with the Pro 800 because you must hold the lever in a more awkward position, so I mostly dial in my grind settings, brew ratios and roast levels so that the 1-bar preinfusion will yield tasty results. By contrast, you can easily stop the pump at any time with the Strega and hold the lever just off the switch with very little effort. So if you want to do shots with a moderate preinfusion followed by a long pause to "bloom" the puck, the Strega will work much better for that use-case.

The Strega steams more powerfully, but the Pro-800 is more than adequate for my needs, as I never steam more than about 100g of milk at a time.

The L-R seems like a nice machine, but I will admit being a bit wary of its novel, complex configuration, and of the challenges of getting a machine serviced when the dealer is abroad. I switched to the Pro 800 after using a vintage commercial lever for a little while, and one of the main motivating factors was frustration when I had to fix internal components that were tricky to identify or source. (In fairness, I am not the most mechanically skilled person!) So I chose the Pro 800 in part because I knew it would be easy to source parts, and because I would have reliable fall-backs to get it professionally repaired within the United States if that was needed. If Iived in England the L-R might have taken first place for very similar reasons.
LMWDP #435

yoshi005
Posts: 197
Joined: 10 years ago

#12: Post by yoshi005 »

@triodelover & @creative Nachname: +1

In defense of vintage machines I have to say that the manual levers triodelover mentioned do not play in the same league as your Pro800.

My 50 year old Lambro makes espresso just as tasty and stable without any effort as a Pro800. Lever technology has not evolved much recently, at least in the home market.
LMWDP #453

Elliot (original poster)
Posts: 219
Joined: 5 years ago

#13: Post by Elliot (original poster) »

triodelover wrote:Hi Elliot,

I have a Profitec Pro 800 but I came to it as an experienced vintage lever user. I have 8 vintage machines around the house ranging from a 1948 Gaggia Gilda to a 2003 Elektra MCaL with two Faeminas, a Cremina, two Arrarexes and a pre-millennium Pavoni Pro in between. I love them and can extract great espresso from all of them but they are a little finicky. It's like a classic British roadster. They are great fun to drive when they are tuned to the sweet spot but that requires a willingness to roll up your sleeves, get under the bonnet and get some grease under your fingernails (or alternatively keeping a mechanic and his family on retainer 8). )

I've wanted to add a modern lever for awhile now simply because there are times I wanted to just pull a shot without having to set up the thermocouples etc that allow us to dial in the best shots on our vintage gear. There are a few exceptions but aesthetically the modern machines are much the same - a box with a large rod (calling Dr Freud) on the front. The Londiniums have the lovely wenge bits but we have our own @cannonfodder (Dave Stephens) and a lot of wood choices to dress the machines up. (See pg 130 of Dave's thread in the Marketplace forum for the gorgeous Macassar ebony bits he did for my Pro 800).

Having hands on experience with the Pro 800 only I won't speculate about other machines that "probably" make the best espresso :) . My Pro 800 is plumbed in and, like Jochen, I ain't going back. I encourage this route if you can and the folks at Clive Coffee have put together a nice little kit ($160) for the purpose. One of the advantages of the Pro 800 is that you can go either way.

OK, you long-winded old fart, what about the coffee? Neither my wife nor I are big fans of milk drinks (I like my whisky neat, too) so all I can say about the steam tap is that it can do the job. (Considering replacing the stock tip with the Lyn-Weber adjustable one at some point.) Our drinks are pretty much straight espresso or Americanos. If you do your homework wrt grind and dose, consistently good shots are pretty easy to pull off. I use the naked portafilter supplied with a VST 18g basket. I also am a home roaster so the coffee is always pretty fresh.

The shots at their best (with all the caveats observed) are balanced and well-rounded with a sweetness that I haven't found in E61 machines. Just do a 10s or so preinfusion and let the spring handle the rest. Until this week I was using my pre-Lyn Weber HG-1. This week I took delivery of a new Versalab M4 and...well, oh my is all I can say. Still getting the new grinder dialed in but it has been a huge step-up so far (and the HG-1 isn't a slouch).

So to summarize (thank god, right?), the Pro 800 has been everything I asked for so far. The folks at Clive Coffee have been very supportive. I still love all my classic levers, but discovering the Pro 800 has been a lot of fun. Highly recommended (by me, FWIW).
Thank you so much for the detailed write up! Long-winded is lovely, as I'm trying to suck up all the information I can. I had planned to add The Pullman System to whatever I buy and obviously a few other little accessories, but yes, I think vintage will require me developing some more inherent skill. I too like that the Profitec can be sourced in the States (though cheaper overseas), which would allow for some easy customer service.

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triodelover
Posts: 75
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#14: Post by triodelover »

yoshi005 wrote:In defense of vintage machines I have to say that the manual levers triodelover mentioned do not play in the same league as your Pro800.
I didn't think I implied that they did. All I said was that I've always been able to get good extractions with them but not with the ease of the Pro 800. The Lambro is a commercial machine (or prosumer, I guess, in the current bastardization of the language).

Also, three of the machines I mentioned are spring-loaded (the two Faeminas and the MCaL), not manual. But all were designed for the home user in the days before the home user could put a machine like the Pro 800 on the counter.

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triodelover
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#15: Post by triodelover »

Elliot wrote:Thank you so much for the detailed write up! Long-winded is lovely, as I'm trying to suck up all the information I can. I had planned to add The Pullman System to whatever I buy and obviously a few other little accessories, but yes, I think vintage will require me developing some more inherent skill. I too like that the Profitec can be sourced in the States (though cheaper overseas), which would allow for some easy customer service.
I will add that one of the great beauties of all the levers is their simplicity relative to the double boiler E61s et al. If you have the tools and the DIY inclination (and the patience :shock: ) you can pretty much do everything you need to right there on your workbench at home, including replace the boiler.

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truemagellen
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#16: Post by truemagellen »

There is another machine you may want to consider for your list.

Izzo Alex Leva.

La San Marco group. PID dipper. Designed for plumb in only but has option for pump and tank to be attached (wiring loom already extends for it out of bottom of machine). I also ran it off a Flojet flawlessly for a month.

They made some changes recently including:

-white LED PID
-Relocating the steam cup warmer activation valve hidden under drip tray but accessible
-Cup tray second level can be easily removed (no need to buy Duetto tray)
-Cup tray no longer has Alex logo on it (cleaner lines)
-comes with 4 different steam tips with various configuration although not new it is rather nice.

I will be happy to answer any questions including how it costs less than the Profitec if you ask retailers for discounts. TomC also has one and has swapped the Valves for joysticks. I actually have joysticks to convert too but with the amount of steam I like the control.

Also you will find with a lever the ease of cleaning and maintenance over the hassle of backflushing will be a dream. I use a espazzola group cleaner and it cleans in seconds compared to brush. Yet I find little I need to clean since moving to levers almost a decade ago.

Pardon the dirty photos, had a lot of guests over right before both of them and pulled 12 or so shots, 5 in a row to compare 3 different beans. Also I added the silicone cup tray protector, it is polished stainless like the rest of the unit.





:mrgreen:

Elliot (original poster)
Posts: 219
Joined: 5 years ago

#17: Post by Elliot (original poster) replying to truemagellen »

Definitely a great machine, but, the plumbing requirement was the reason I went away from it. And while I have counter space, it seems onerous to deal with a separate water tank, etc.

LObin
Posts: 1793
Joined: 7 years ago

#18: Post by LObin »

If you drink a lot of light roasts or if you're wanting to experiment with different roasts from dark to light filter or even nordic roasts, the LR is the way to go.

All the other machines mentioned thus far, including the Izzo are very good options. Although, I guess I would say the same thing about any commercial levers! :D
LMWDP #592

Elliot (original poster)
Posts: 219
Joined: 5 years ago

#19: Post by Elliot (original poster) »

[creative nickname] wrote:I own both a Strega and a Pro 800. The Strega used to be my home machine, but it now lives at my office. I run the Strega off its tank and have the Pro 800 fully plumbed in.

It is hard to overstate how simple and pleasant it is to use the Pro 800 in its fully-plumbed configuration. It is the quietest machine I've ever had, with no clicking of a pressurestat or pump sound when the boiler is refilled. The PID is easy to access and any changes take effect surprisingly quickly. I love that the boiler is insulated, especially during our long Florida summers, where I must pay extra for air conditioning to counteract a boiler's waste heat. The espresso is fantastic, and I can easily pull shots ranging from light roasts to full city with delicious results. For reference, most of my shots are classic singles at a 1:3 ratio, but I also pull doubles, shorter shots and longer shots when that makes sense for a coffee or my mood.

The Strega, by comparison, is loud and less nicely finished. The pump configuration does let you play around a lot with preinfusion, and with practice you can adjust shot-pulling temp very well through timed flushes. The downside is that this uses a lot of water, which is no big deal with a fully plumbed machine but adds a bit more frustration when you are manually filling a tank and emptying a drip tray. Because the pump fills the chamber all the way up to full pressure, the maximum shot volume with a single pull is higher on the Strega. I typically max out around 50g of output with a double on the Pro 800, but can reach 64 or more with the Strega if desired.

Once you learn the ins and outs of either machine, you can flexibly use different levels of preinfusion with either. It will be a bit more work with the Pro 800 because you must hold the lever in a more awkward position, so I mostly dial in my grind settings, brew ratios and roast levels so that the 1-bar preinfusion will yield tasty results. By contrast, you can easily stop the pump at any time with the Strega and hold the lever just off the switch with very little effort. So if you want to do shots with a moderate preinfusion followed by a long pause to "bloom" the puck, the Strega will work much better for that use-case.

The Strega steams more powerfully, but the Pro-800 is more than adequate for my needs, as I never steam more than about 100g of milk at a time.

The L-R seems like a nice machine, but I will admit being a bit wary of its novel, complex configuration, and of the challenges of getting a machine serviced when the dealer is abroad. I switched to the Pro 800 after using a vintage commercial lever for a little while, and one of the main motivating factors was frustration when I had to fix internal components that were tricky to identify or source. (In fairness, I am not the most mechanically skilled person!) So I chose the Pro 800 in part because I knew it would be easy to source parts, and because I would have reliable fall-backs to get it professionally repaired within the United States if that was needed. If Iived in England the L-R might have taken first place for very similar reasons.
Incredibly useful and is also my hesitation on the LR. I have spoken to Reiss and he really does seem like an excellent man. But, points are valid nonetheless and give me cause to pause and consider the Profitec. Downside there being noise as it wouldn't be plumbed.

Brandon
Posts: 45
Joined: 6 years ago

#20: Post by Brandon »

One that may be an option if you are concerned about the vibe pump is the QuickMill Achille. It has a rotary pump and the same group as the Pro 800 and virtually every other "prosumer" lever, although it is not a dipper. It is cheaper than the pro 800 and you get the service and support of Chris's coffee. I went with it because I did not want a vibe pump in my machine. It also has a massive 4.5 liter boiler, and it is a pretty big machine. It may not be the best option if space is an issue. It also doesn't have a pid, but I don't mind a pressurestat at all, especially on a lever.