Hi friends,

I have found so much useful information, both in general, and on these particular model, and wanted to seek your tailored advice for these particular models in comparison to one another.

Quick background...Currently operating with:

Quickmill Andreja Premium HX (2013) with Eric's thermometer, which is plumbed in
Rio (Mazzer) Super Jolly Grinder

We almost exclusively produce milk based drinks in our house, and moving beyond the temp surfing of the HX over to a more controlled environment of a PID is the main desire, while still keeping strong (if not stronger) steam for lattes. I am looking at rotary pump machines.

I have been doing my research, and while the GS3 would be fantastic, as well as the Dalla Corte, I'm sticking to the sub $3k mark for the espresso machine.

What I have come to understand:

La Spaziale S1 Dream: This provides volumetric control, which is a nice feature to have so that I can eliminate yet another variable when dialing in a lovely shot of espresso. The temperature stability is great, and many say it produces a terrific shot. A debatable downside is that it uses the 53mm basket. Some say this helps reduce channeling, others say it is less even extraction of the espresso given the depth. Bottom line, though, from what I read is that many people feel this has been a good machine for them. Many recommended buying a triple basket, naked portafilter, and precision screen for the machine. I also read that some people felt the steam wand was a bit short, and that in general, the machine felt a bit "cramped". Downside for me, given that I currently have an E61 machine, is that I already own all the 58mm toys, and would need to acquire new baskets/tamper/etc.

The Alex Duetto IV Plus (Not Alex Duetto EVO by Izzo): I spoke with a very helpful rep from Chris Coffee (bought my first machine there, and have greatly appreciated their advice and time over the years, and so am inclined to purchase from them again). Mackenzie from CC suggested that I also might consider this machine. It is E61 with PID, does not have volumetric control, but as a small bonus, has a built in shot timer display. This is a nice add on, but not a great influencer. If I want to stay with having a big hunk of stainless steel on my counter, this is more the direction than the La Spaziale Dream (whose plastic does play a little bit "cheaper" to me....and yes I know I can get beautiful wood panels, but that's a bunch more money). As best I can tell, the Duetto IV would be similar to my current Andreja Premium, but with two boilers and a PID. I can keep the 58mm baskets, and be set. I did hear that the touch display on the Duetto IV EVO is finicky, and that this is a reason to avoid that model...hence the focus on the Duetto IV Plus.

Profitec Pro 700: There seem to be a lot of rave reviews for this one, both in how it is built, and also for the massive size and pressure of its steam boiler. More importantly, it looks like it produces lovely shots of espresso. I see that they have a "Flow Control" model, which is all well and good, but I'm not sure what effect that has, nor am I certain that would greatly impact my decision (happy to be told otherwise.) This seems to me to be a more sturdy and powerful (at least as for steam) alternative to the Alex Duetto IV Plus. The raised drip tray area seems to make a smaller clearing for a cup, so that could be a downside as well. Again, I can the added bonus of it being E61 is a plus as for existing equipment on hand. This is not sold by Chris Coffee, so I would not be able to express my loyalty for their past wonderful help with my Quickmill...which I guess is just a reality, although I would like to take care of good people where I could (as I am sure there are good people at the other retailers as well.)

I am inclined to one choice already, but am hoping to get your wonderful advice to help me either confirm my hunch, or switch direction. Also, while it is a bit of a can of worms, if I am leaving out a great machine that you think I haven't considered, please fire away.

Thank you for any thoughts you can and are willing to share.

-Adam

I can't comment much on the Profitec and Izzo, and I'm sure they're fantastic. We have a La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II that has lasted us 13 years so far and is still going strong. It's needed some work (new heating element in brew boiler...), but overall has been reliable and very easy for my mom to use. I use a 58mm E61 clone (Astra Pro) and like the availability of E61 parts and all the knowledge on it, but I don't have any problems using the 53mm of the Spaz.

Bought my Spaziale Dream T from Chris Coffee about 16 mo. ago, so if you buy either machine you can work with them.

58 mm -> 53 mm PF. I had to start over & replace my E61 stuff with new precision baskets, tamper, etc. A bit of a pain but in the long run not a big deal.
I don't use the triple basket, never got good results with it. I suspect it's because the puck is so thick. Instead, I just scale down the recipe I would use with the E61. If I was using 20 in 40 out for a 2:1 ratio, then I might go with 17 gr in 34 gr out. For most coffees, I've found a 17 gr dose works best in the 18 gr IMS competition basket.

Volumetrics - nice, but I've found a bit inconsistent unless you work with the same beans on a regular basis.

Temp stability - in addition to having PID, the grouphead is bolted directly to the boiler and I've found the temp to be much more consistent than my PID E61

Along those lines, the cool features that I like about the Dream is the electronics.
I can save 4 different user profiles each with different grouphead temp, steam pressure & volumetrics among other settings.
I have several coffees I use regularly that are best with different parameters. Press a button & I can switch back & forth.
The firmware can be updated to add other features as well.

Built in timer is great. I'm a slow starter in the AM & the builtin timer allows me to set time to turn & turn off automatically for each day of the week.

That's my take on the Spaz.

I dont know if it's just me but I am drawn to the looks of profitec/rocket machines over other machines that look the same. I think it's because of the curves or the small subtleties that make it different despite the other machines looking "the same"(if that makes sense) is what stands out. Tons of positive reviews for the pro700 and if I didn't have the coin for a gs3 a pro700 or an r58 would be my choice.

I really appreciate all the wonderful replies and insights provided so far. Thank you to each of you. As best I can ascertain from the perspectives shared, each machine has advocates and solid reasons to go with that model, and the preference comes down to a few details...said another way, I would likely be satisfied with any of these three machines. I look forward to other opinions as they emerge in this thread, and again, thank you for the contributions already made.

One question that struck me from reading Steve's first reply, regarding flow control (allowing for flow profiling, as best i understand.) I hadn't known much about the flow control concept, until I saw the feature listed as part of the name of the Profitec Pro 700 (with Flow Control). After I saw Steve's mention of the Flow Control mushroom, I then read the threads from Whole Latte Love discussing making the stainless steel mushroom available for other machines. This led me down the rabbit whole about Flow Profiling....and then I kissed those hours of my Saturday away .

For me, a big advantage of the La Spaziale S1 Dream was that it featured volumetric control. The Duetto, while a great E61, did not have volumetric control. Steve had suggested, in his reply, that he recommended I buy the Alex Duetto, and retrofit it with a Flow Control Mushroom. Would this make the Alex Duetto Pro essentially have volumetric control as well? I guess that if you have a very controlled rate of flow, and you also have a shot timer, then if you always stop at a certain amount of time, you would always have the same amount of flow. So if I were doing 18 grams in, and aimed for 36 out, I would just have to figure out the math on how much water to move through in 25 seconds (as a goal), and set the flow control to that rate? Does that logic hold out? I wasn't entirely sure if this was why you were suggesting the Flow Control retrofit for the Alex, Steve, or if you just thought that Flow Control is a really cool feature to have, independent of anything else....and I was very intrigued by the suggestion either way.

The volumetric control is possibly the biggest difference for me between the Alex and the Dream, and if that were a moot point, I would be more likely go to the Alex Duetto (although adding the $200 for the mushroom, on top of the $400 difference between the machines is a bit more of a leap in order to get the Alex.) In any event, I wanted to make sure I'm not making a leap in my assumption as to the purpose of Flow Control as it pertains to the suggestion Steve made. I do get that Flow Profiling is a whole other subject onto itself, and I'm not yet ready to go down that (flow rate controlled) waterslide just yet in trying to dial in a shot....got to leave some adventures to future days!

Thanks again, everyone for all your knowledge shares.

This is terrific information. Thank you for taking so much time to type it all out, and never a need to apologize for a long post . I'm doing al I can to keep my brain from going down the rabbit hole of parameters that can be adjusted to get to really good coffee. Your post also helped me realize that I hadn't shared all the info about my approach, which does overlap yours, somewhat. I, too, use a scale to measure grounds out (to tenth of a gram), and also use that same scale to kill the shot at around 2:1. I'm usually about 18.5 in, and aim for around 36 out, which sometimes I overshoot.

My current method was to pre-infuse with line pressure (already plumbed in), then activate the pump. I would push the lever all the way down to end the shot, rather than return to the middle position to allow the shot to end under line pressure. I hadn't thought to ramp down the pressure at the end, I could see how that would also allow me to more slowly approach the final desired weight of the shot.

This is a bit of a side question, but if one is aiming for a 2:1 ratio in a set time frame (say 25 seconds), how much are you relying on the color of the shot as it nears the end (i.e making sure it is not over-blonding?) You easily could get to a 2:1 ratio and still be over-extracting. Maybe the answer is that if you had your grind dialed in such that 18 grams produced 36 grams out in 25 seconds, it inherently is not going to be over-extracted, but that may be an errant assumption. I remember reading the (wonderful) articles here on dialing in espresso extraction, and recall the importance of stopping at the right "color". Is that still considered important, or does recipe ratio, combined with time of extraction and finished flavor really negate the need to consider extraction look? I hope that question makes sense....No rush on answering that one, but I do appreciate all the insights you've shared.

Now, I saw someone selling a Slayer on the used forum...just don't think I can justify the 5k plus shipping....but boy that sounded enticing! Taking deep breaths!

All the best to everyone,
-A