Ditting LS or Mazzer Kony S (or something else)?

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
mcontraveos
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#1: Post by mcontraveos »

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to buy a new grinder, and my search has taken me to Ditting 807 Lab Sweet and the Mazzer Kony S. I am in the United States, if it matters..

My condensed list of guiding observations are:

* my family and I definitely prefer "comfort" espresso -- chocolate, sweetness, viscosity. We are not sophisticated third-wave espresso people..!

* I'd like to have something that is built soundly, and will last (ideally) decades.

* I would like something with a high degree of user-serviceability ease of maintenance.

* I have only 15A circuits.

Do either of those grinders sound like a good match given what I'm looking for? Is there anything else that might suit the bill better?

Thanks very much!

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Jeff
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#2: Post by Jeff »

Welcome to H-B!

Probably a good thing that you're aware of your preferences, and not chasing someone else's tail on this.

In my opinion, spending over $2,000, given your preferences, is not going to make any significant difference in the cup for espresso. Even spending over $1,000 is dicey, but at least there you can get some more enjoyable day-to-day usability over a $500-class grinder.

I have a Compak K10 WBC that is a conical, shop grinder. It will run forever at a couple cups a day, keeping it clean and replacing motor-start capacitors. It's big. It's not quiet.

I also have a Niche Zero, which used Kony burrs and is designed for single dosing. It's comparatively tiny. It is quiet, as the kind of sound it makes is not grating to my nerves (or, apparently the nearby sleeping dogs). It is easy to adjust and clean. It will likely run for a decade or more in home use. It is around 1/3 the price of a K10 WBC.

I've considered a Ditting 807 myself. The US distributorship changed hands recently and the new one apparently can't get it together on them last I checked. It looks big in home settings.

I wouldn't buy a Kony for home as it's big, It's got a doser and a hopper both. The Niche Zero has the same burrs in a much more counter- and wallet-friendly package.

My recommendations would be to look at the Niche Zero, as well as the Lagom P64, perhaps with either the HU burrs or the new, SSP "Sweet" burrs (inspired by the Lab Sweet burrs, but, for many reasons, not "the same"). Lance Hendrick recently captured his opinions around the "Sweet" burrs and they sound like an interesting choice.

$2,000 incremental in top-quality, "comfort" coffee and a Niche Zero, for me, is a better option than a $3,000-class grinder and mediocre coffee.

ira
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#3: Post by ira »

Of the two you present, I'd say the Kony is probably a better choice for what you drink. Around here most everyone now uses single dose grinders where you have to measure the beans for each shot, like the two recommended in Jeff's post. You might also consider the LM Swift Mini if it ever becomes available as it might be perfect for your needs. Hopper, dosing and no grounds prep necessary. Maybe they'll finally release it next week in Boston at the SCA show. As pointed out already the Kony is huge for a kitchen counter, but it will last for you and probably you grandchildren's life.

Ira

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Jeff
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#4: Post by Jeff »

If you don't change coffees often and are considering a hopper grinder, the upper-range Eureka grinders may be a reasonable choice. The Atom 75 or Lucca Atom 75 Espresso Grinder Review seem like they might be worthwhile to examine.

mreloc
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#5: Post by mreloc »

Since you specifically asked about two grinders, I'm going to stick to that vs. suggesting a bunch of alternatives. You obviously want to spend for the best, because (like me) we are sometimes irrational and only want and can afford to spend for the nuances that come with "the best" so that we rest easy without wondering what-if.

After 4 years I'm moving from a Niche to a Lab Sweet as soon as it arrives (they have landed in the U.S. as of last week). While I waited on the LS, Voltage Coffee Supply mistakenly sent me a Ditting Filter grinder with LS burrs installed so I was able to try it. Yes, the espresso is sweet, smooooth, and full of body. As others have pointed out, it is hard to make bad coffee with this thing. I use primarily medium/lighter roast coffee.

The Niche has been a fine grinder, and if I were looking at the Mazzer S, I'd probably pick the Niche again just because it uses the same burrs- but I will point out that the snapping sound the acrylic lid makes on the Niche gets aggravating (to me anyway) because you do it repeatedly to clear the grounds. Unlike most others, I don't like the unfinished oak pieces- the grinding tray quickly soaks up coffee oils if any grinds fall out and sit there and it stains, so I rinse it with a cafiza solution every couple of weeks or so to get it clean- sure, I could finish the oak, or buy other accessories, but I'm just pointing out what I don't like about it out of the box. The Niche is slow to grind in comparison to the LS- about 18-20 seconds compared to 3 seconds on the LS. The Mazzer I think is fast, too, so it must be a factor of the RPMs. As far as flavor differences, I would characterize the Niche being more sour in comparison to the LS- but I still like the coffee - it just doesn't have the coffee-shop qualities like the LS does. My wife claims she sometimes has heartburn after the Niche coffee, but not with the LS. Purely unscientific, I know.

I love the classic look of the Mazzer- but given it has the same burrs as the Niche, I think I will be happy with the Ditting (with the simple on/off operation) and still premium, commercial quality.

I am primarily going to single-dose it, so ordered this from a guy in Germany (thanks to a hook-up on HB) which will save me some head-room and make the grinder less imposing for my home coffee bar:

https://i.ibb.co/F35KTHS/20211224-083650.jpg

mcontraveos (original poster)
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#6: Post by mcontraveos (original poster) »

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses!

Jeff -- I appreciate the Eureka suggestions; I'll look into those as well. Going over $2,000 or so was a concern of mine, knowing that I likely wouldn't discern any improvements in the cup after that. What I would expect, though, is improvements in reliability, serviceability, ergonomics, and the like..that's where I am hoping to realize some value from investing more.

mreloc -- Very impressive use of the Ditting. I'm used to a hopper now, but since we only make a few drinks a day, I also wonder if single-dosing might be an easy switch for me.

Ira -- thanks for pointing me to the Mini, I wasn't aware of it. To be honest, I hadn't considered LM as a grinder make previously.

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Jeff
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#7: Post by Jeff »

I'm not convinced that "buying up" for a long-term investment has any returns or that a shop grinder is "measurably better" in terms of ergonomics, reliability, or the impact of serviceability ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it").

Home users are fickle. They're always after the latest trends, so even five-year-old designs steeply depreciate. It is just barely 10 years since the Titan Grinder project. Many of the top grinders in that list no longer exist. That Cimbali made a DRM grinder a decade or two ago has long been forgotten by many. Even the "regular" Monolith has lost its shine now that the "Max" is out.

I've found shop grinders to have much worse ergonomics for home use than the better home-intended grinders. I've got a cut in my eyebrow right now from working with a big shop grinder and catching my face on it while bending over to check to see if I had cleaned it up properly for the day. Like that range hood that is at just the wrong height, even if you know it's there, you occasionally "forget" and smack yourself. The ergonomics of, for example, a Niche Zero, at least for me, blow away any shop grinder in a home setting. Take design around setting of grind, as one example. A shop grinder needs to grind through something like 5-10 kg a day with nothing changing through each kg and from day to day, except maybe a tiny bump in grind one way or another as the day progresses and as the coffee ages over the week. Collars on shop grinders can be very unfriendly to making tiny adjustments and returning to the same point as before an adjustment. Home-intended grinders, on the other hand, have varying levels of success for making adjustments easy and repeatable. Some of the other areas include retention (which includes exchange) and morning-friendly noise profiles (level and type both -- soft and screechy can be more annoying than a technically loud, low rumble).

As for reliability, I would be surprised if there are any more or less issues with a home-intended grinder above the ultra-discount level of something like the Turin/DF64 than a shop grinder, when looking at typical home use. At maybe 6 shots a day, about 120 g, that's less than 50 kg a year. For me, I'm around 10-15 kg a year, what some cafes go through in a day. The burrs are unlikely to wear out. Motor-start capacitors on shop grinders tend to go with time, not so much with "use". How serviceable they are depends on the machine. Some are readily accessible without tearing the whole thing down, others not so much.