A conical of my own: Compak K10 vs. Cimbali Max Hybrid

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
christopherpetro
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#1: Post by christopherpetro »

I've finally settled on a machine, but I'm still undecided about a grinder. I've read everything I can find here about the ones I'm considering, but I'm still having a hard time deciding. If anyone with experience (or just extensive knowledge) about these particular models can help, I would appreciate it.

I learned on a Super Jolly, and while it worked great, I tended to go through a lot of coffee adjusting it, so I decided that I wanted to get a conical for home. The small size of the Cimbali Max Hybrid made it quite appealing. I don't currently have any vertical space constraints, but who knows what the future holds? The K10 WBC has been the other major contender, but now the doserless is available and I'm considering that as well. I like it a lot better than the Cimbali, but unfortunately, it's twice as expensive and I have not managed to convince myself that it's worth it.

Based on the results of Will It Beat the Robur, both seem to produce good enough results that I'm unlikely to need to upgrade any time this decade. The differences, as I've tallied them so far:

* The K10 has been said to be a little more stable as far as grind results
* The Max Hybrid's doser doesn't like anything but full pulls. Quick short pulls don't move the vanes like they do on other dosers
* The K10 hopper can be removed easily and quickly, but the Cimbali has to be unscrewed
* The K10 actually looks like a grinder, whereas I want to cry every time I think about spending $800 on something that looks like the Max Hybrid.
* The Max Hybrid is small, while the K10 is pretty tall even with a short hopper
* The Max Hybrid is half the price of the K10 doserless and a lot cheaper than the WBC

Is there anything else I've missed? Other than price and size, everything seems to favor the Compak. But in practice, how much (if at all) have these things affected you as a user? Is there anything else that really annoys you about the either of them? While the price difference is big, when amortized over years of use, it's not really that big... and unlike price, annoyance compounds over the years.

If I decide to go K10, the decision about the doserless is even harder. I haven't seen any responses yet on the K10 doserless thread, so it's not clear how reliable dosing from the timer is. If I have people over and I'm making a lot of milk drinks, I'm not going to be weighing every shot out of the grinder. A timer would be pretty handy if it works well enough to be worth using.

For the more usual case of just pulling a couple of shots, the retention and easy cleaning on the doserless is of paramount importance. I haven't seen any definitive answers on that yet, either. It's easy enough to clean the chute on a K10 WBC, but with the bathtub spigot bolted to the front of the doserless, it looks like it might be a real hassle.

Thoughts? Rants? Suggestions that I'm crazy and should be considering something else entirely?

zin1953
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#2: Post by zin1953 »

The Cimbali Max Hybrid (hereafter abbreviated as "CMH") is not a "true" conical -- it is a hybrid, with one 64mm conical and one 64mm flat burr. It is currently priced at $760.75 after discount.

The Compak K10 (hereafter abbreviated as "K10"), on the other hand, IS a true conical, with a 68mm conical burr set. But there are three different versions of the K10: the K10 Conic, or "regular" version, is $1,382.50; the K10 WBC is $1,417.50 (black) or $1,425.00 (polished); and the K10 Doserless is $1,855.00. Each is substantially more expensive than the CMH, and -- personally -- I would be hard-pressed to find the difference in price worth it.

Now, let me clearly state that I was in a similar position to you. After reading the Titan Grinder Project: Can it Beat the Robur? thread, I was looking carefully at both the CMH and the K10. I opted for the K10 for three reasons: first, the distribution at the time of Compak was "iffy" at best (though this has been rectified and should no longer be an issue); second was the level of grind retention with the K10; and third, the price tag.

I have been very happy with the CMH, but . . .

The "but" is that it is not a grinder for everyone. The optimum user of the CMH is someone who does not frequently change beans/blends, and someone who does not "dose-by-the-shot" but rather leaves some beans in the hopper. Without beans in the hopper, this grinder will "popcorn" significantly. (BTW, yes -- the hopper is held in place with three screws.) Also, the grinder is louder than I would prefer. It's not going to make anyone deaf, and there are ways to dampen the decibel level, but you'll never be able to quietly make an espresso at 5:00 a.m.

I still use my CMH five days a week; it's in my office. But I replaced it at home with a Mahlkönig K30 Vario, the stepless version of the K30 ES. It has a 65mm flat burr set, but I find the grind quality to be excellent, and it is a) very quiet, and b) very fast.

To read the TGP, I was very excited about the K10 . . . now not so much. Please remember that I do not own one; take what I am saying with the requisite grains of salt! But I think it would be worthwhile to read through the following for "hands on" plusses-and-minuses regarding the K10:
AGAIN, take these postings with whatever grains of salt you deem appropriate, and especially check the dates of the posts -- some may no longer be valid concerns, while some may be.

The bottom line, I think, is that either grinder would make you quite happy, but if you have the money for a K10, why not give a serious look to something like the aforementioned Mahlkönig*, or a Mazzer Kony, or even a used Robur + new burrs?

Just a thought . . .

Cheers,
Jason

* In the FWIW Dept., if you check out the Mahlkönig USA website (different than the link above), and then click on "Specials" at the top of the page, you can often find a K30 Vario that was used at a trade show for substantially less -- approx. the price of a K10 WBC. Just a thought.
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.

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another_jim
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#3: Post by another_jim »

I found the grind quality equally good in side by side tests. The ergonomics are completely different. The Compak is the best of the Titan's for single dose grinding, for changing coffees, and for making large grind setting changes; it is however a monster. The Max is much more compact and sleek; but it only works for one coffee at a time, using the hopper, for espresso only.

The choice should be obvious based on your needs
Jim Schulman

portamento
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#4: Post by portamento »

I too was concerned about the ergonomics and aesthetics of the Cimbali Max Hybrid, but talked myself into it because it's a lot of grinder for the money.

When I received the grinder, I was indeed very disappointed in the ergonomics, having grown accustomed to Mazzer grinders. I hated the long throw of the dosing lever, the plastic bits in the doser, and the inaccessibility of the chute. The absolute need for a bean load above the burrs was an additional downside.

However, the deal breaker for me was clumping. It was very difficult to get a good distribution in the basket, between the awkward dosing lever and the sticky, clumpy grinds. I had read on H-B that the CMH would perform well without fancy redistribution techniques but my experience was the opposite; I had to massage the heck out of the coffee before tamping to avoid channeling.

Now, having read more about burr break-in and clumping on brand new Roburs, etc... I think I probably didn't give the CMH a fair shake. I ran several pounds through, but maybe I really needed to run 50+ pounds through to get the burrs to "settle in." But with only 30 days to return the machine, I regrettably had to send it back.

If you like ergonomics of the Super Jolly, it seems that the Compak WBC is setup in a similar fashion and might be a better fit for you. It has a really short hopper available, and you can successfully run it hopperless if height ever becomes an issue.

Or just get a used Super Jolly or Major for much less than both grinders. I personally do not experience the "frequent need to adjust" that so many people complain about. Even on my Mazzer Mini, my grind setting stays pretty stable. Most of the time I just tweak the dose if I'm not happy with the flow rate. That said, I have considered a Compak K10 for its apparent ability to pull sweeter shots from light acidic coffees.
Ryan

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Arpi
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#5: Post by Arpi »

You make good points about the doserless model. The doser model can be cleaned in one minute! and the chute grounds can be spooned out. With the doserless nose you would not be able to do that. This are the tools I use.



One is an ice cake spatula that has been trimmed (to spoon out the grounds in the chute). The other is an acid brush that has also been trimmed (to clean the impellers). The doser model is very good at doing single shots changing beans on the fly.

Cheers

Ken Fox
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#6: Post by Ken Fox »

another_jim wrote:I found the grind quality equally good in side by side tests. The ergonomics are completely different. The Compak is the best of the Titan's for single dose grinding, for changing coffees, and for making large grind setting changes; it is however a monster. The Max is much more compact and sleek; but it only works for one coffee at a time, using the hopper, for espresso only.

The choice should be obvious based on your needs
To Jim's comments I would only add that there is a significant price difference with the Max offering one of the best bangs for the buck of any high end grinder one would consider using in a home setting. If you are considering getting a large "Titan-like" grinder for your home, for the same amount of money or perhaps a little more, you could get TWO Maxs, which will fit under kitchen counters and will afford the easy option of having at least 2 or three coffees available on a daily basis without having to operate the grinder for single dosing.

Some have complained about the noise level of the Max while grinding. Although it may be a little louder than some grinders, the short periods of time that it is used for renders this criticism unduly "picky" in my view. Using the same criteria there is no end to the list of other briefly used home appliances that one should avoid.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955

zin1953
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#7: Post by zin1953 »

Ken, I agree that the CMH provides great "bang for the buck." As for the noise level, all I can tell you is that the noise -- or rather, perhaps, the notice of noise -- is much less in a law office during working hours than it is at 5:30 am at home . . . :wink:
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.

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christopherpetro (original poster)
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#8: Post by christopherpetro (original poster) »

zin1953 wrote:The Cimbali Max Hybrid (hereafter abbreviated as "CMH") is not a "true" conical -- it is a hybrid, with one 64mm conical and one 64mm flat burr.
Understood. I would have thought that the much longer grind path the hybrid design provides would result in an even more stable grind. Someone (I think it was Ken) indicated that that wasn't the case, and I've been curious why. It didn't sound like it was much worse than the slightly larger conicals, however, so I wasn't too worried about it.
zin1953 wrote:The optimum user of the CMH is someone who does not frequently change beans/blends, and someone who does not "dose-by-the-shot" but rather leaves some beans in the hopper. Without beans in the hopper, this grinder will "popcorn" significantly. Also, the grinder is louder than I would prefer.
another_jim wrote:The Compak is the best of the Titan's for single dose grinding, for changing coffees, and for making large grind setting changes; it is however a monster. The Max is much more compact and sleek; but it only works for one coffee at a time, using the hopper, for espresso only.
portamento wrote:When I received the grinder, I was indeed very disappointed in the ergonomics, having grown accustomed to Mazzer grinders. I hated the long throw of the dosing lever, the plastic bits in the doser, and the inaccessibility of the chute. The absolute need for a bean load above the burrs was an additional downside.
That's what I was afraid of. All of those issues disqualify the Max for me. Thanks... I'm glad I didn't jump at what seemed like a great deal and end up with something completely inappropriate.
zin1953 wrote:If you have the money for a K10, why not give a serious look to something like the aforementioned Mahlkönig*, or a Mazzer Kony, or even a used Robur + new burrs?
I considered trying to find a used Robur, but it seems to retain a ton of grinds. I don't plan to single dose, so I won't be able to always sweep everything out, and there will frequently be many hours between shots... so a lot of grinds staling where I can't get at them concerns me.
zin1953 wrote:In the FWIW Dept., if you check out the Mahlkönig USA website (different than the link above), and then click on "Specials" at the top of the page, you can often find a K30 Vario that was used at a trade show for substantially less -- approx. the price of a K10 WBC. Just a thought.
Now that is very interesting. I didn't realize demo units were available. I briefly considered the K30 Vario because I think it's a nice looking grinder, it's fast, and in the videos it sounds pretty quiet. I was concerned (besides the price, which now seems less of an issue) that like other flat-burr grinders I might spend more time and coffee adjusting grind than I'd like to at home. You don't find that to be the case?

I've spent all day reading posts about the K30, and I've seen conflicting information about retention of grinds. How much does yours tend to retain?

Of course, now I'm thinking hell, as long as I'm considering spending $1600 on a grinder, why not make it $2000 and get a Nino?
Ken Fox wrote:If you are considering getting a large "Titan-like" grinder for your home, for the same amount of money or perhaps a little more, you could get TWO Maxs, which will fit under kitchen counters and will afford the easy option of having at least 2 or three coffees available on a daily basis without having to operate the grinder for single dosing.
Oh, wow... a dedicated decaf/other blend grinder. Now that does sound nice. I was pretty much decided on getting a K30 demo or Nino, but now you've gone and made this complicated again. :)

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another_jim
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#9: Post by another_jim »

It's not a yard sale, it's a grinder. In a year, you won't even remember the great or awful deal you got. You will however be happy or stuck with whatever you get.

So get real -- make a list of the coffees and prep styles you are going to drink each week (real world, not in a "maybe once I have the grinder of my dreams" world). Figure in counter space, waking people up at four in the morning etc. Now pick a grinder or grinders that will do the job well.
Jim Schulman

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shadowfax
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#10: Post by shadowfax »

another_jim wrote:It's not a yard sale, it's a grinder. In a year, you won't even remember the great or awful deal you got. You will however be happy or stuck with whatever you get.
Man, gunning for another Quotable Quote, are you? I love it. It's so so true.

And speaking of how much this isn't a yard sale, I'd take a lesson from Ryan (portamento) if I had my sights set on the Cimbali Max Hybrid but wasn't sure about it (full disclosure: I haven't used one but I am 99.9% sure I would hate its ergonomics). The CMH is so darn cheap compared to the other players that if you think it might fit, it'd behoove you to buy one with a 30-day guarantee and give it a shot. You can always take it back and upgrade if you hate it. You probably won't get the same deal with the bigger titans, as they are (price-wise) much more full-on commercial equipment usually subject to a no-returns policy (or a HUGE ding in the form of a re-stocking fee if you do return it).
Nicholas Lundgaard

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