Choosing the right spring lever espresso machine - Page 3

Recommendations for espresso equipment buyers and upgraders.
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BaristaBoy E61

Postby BaristaBoy E61 » Aug 15, 2019, 6:28 pm

I am tempted by the Profitec Pro 800 because it's a 'dipper' with no need for a pump when direct plumbed, quiet & has a PID controller.

I'm also nagged by the question of, "What if I already have the perfect machine for me (and don't know it)" ?
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

TheMadTamper

Postby TheMadTamper » replying to BaristaBoy E61 » Aug 19, 2019, 3:13 pm

It's funny, if you read this forum enough you get the impression dippers are undesirable.....yet the Boscos are dippers. I don't have a strong opinion on the PID, honestly. It seems a bit excessive on a lever. The good about the PID is easy access to set the boiler temp without opening the case, and less wear & tear on the elements. The bad side is it's worse for steam performance, and my lights annoyingly flicker when a PID is on the line....the M21 has been a nice break from the Duetto's pulsing. (Strangely even my Keurig (commercial) causes the lights flickering. I assume they use rudimentary PIDs.))

No pump is a big deal though. Not because I care about pump noise on rotary machines, but that's a major breakable part to eliminate. I really really don't understand why the Achille runs the pump in plumbed mode. It's the only lever I'm aware of with that issue (other than HX assisted designs.)

It's a very hard call between the machines. Achille is cheaper, more robust physically (or so it looks), and a much bigger boiler. But has that annoying pump, a harder to access chassis, and has what seems like, based on some HB threads, "problematic" sight glass seals for which CCS isn't able to rapidly source parts.

I still wonder at times why ECM/Profitec is *so* highly priced for their machines. The Achille weighs more, *and* has a fairly expensive pro-con pump and motor along with a much larger boiler for a notable lower price. Same is true with various ECM/Profitec E61s. The PID controller adds $100 but that pump should add $250 at least.

I mostly fear the Profitec will feel too "consumer" and too much like the Duetto in hand, versus the more "robust" looking Achille.


I absolutely hear you about "what if I already have the perfect machine for me and don't know it" - I think that all the time! Duetto 2 isn't perfect for me. I love it, it's served me well, and I'm going to refurbish it. But....I recently acquired a Cimbali Jr.....and it's like an espresso dream. Insanely fun to use (I'd not have thought push button automatic was fun, but with the solid HX, it actually is!) , works with my workflow, beautifully robust and rugged, I love the commercial everything about it, and even using the stock 4 hole tip that everyone complains is far too much power, I'm making the best microfoam I've ever made. In many ways, it really is my perfect machine, and I feel silly still looking at the lever.

And yet....it's still...a complicated machine with a lot of parts to break...expensive parts. The lever would keep me running with more ease I think. And levers are always fun to pull. I adore using, and even just looking at the M21 in all its commercial glory, but I wonder if it's best left as a backup machine. I wonder, what if I'm injured or something and can't pull the lever for a period of time (a bruised rib a year or so ago made me think of that...a lever might have been physically unbearable to pull.) Might as well keep it mint and ready rather than wear it out....make a lever the day to day! Or so I keep telling myself. :wink:

I use my machines hard. It's on every morning of the year.....and I'd like to start running it more often in the evening as well.

Phaedrus

Postby Phaedrus » Aug 19, 2019, 4:14 pm

HOST 2019 is right around the corner - perhaps it's best to see what the major vendors have in store for us before making a purchase? Also, a few months ago the Pro800 was $200 cheaper; which made it a no-brainer vs the Achille. Not sure what happened (exchange rates, shipping, etc.) but when WLL updated their site, the price shot up. At the new price, it makes total sense why you would give the Achille a good long look.

Javier

Postby Javier » Aug 19, 2019, 5:27 pm

Phaedrus wrote:Also, a few months ago the Pro800 was $200 cheaper; which made it a no-brainer vs the Achille. Not sure what happened (exchange rates, shipping, etc.) but when WLL updated their site, the price shot up. At the new price, it makes total sense why you would give the Achille a good long look.


The Profitec Pro 800 was $2,500 about two years ago. I should have bought it back then, but "overthinking" did not help.
LMWDP #115

TheMadTamper

Postby TheMadTamper » Aug 20, 2019, 12:30 pm

Phaedrus wrote:HOST 2019 is right around the corner - perhaps it's best to see what the major vendors have in store for us before making a purchase? Also, a few months ago the Pro800 was $200 cheaper; which made it a no-brainer vs the Achille. Not sure what happened (exchange rates, shipping, etc.) but when WLL updated their site, the price shot up. At the new price, it makes total sense why you would give the Achille a good long look.


Javier wrote:The Profitec Pro 800 was $2,500 about two years ago. I should have bought it back then, but "overthinking" did not help.


That's all extremely interesting about the price differences. I had not realized that, and it's starting to make a lot of sense what I'm seeing. I assume that means Achille will have a price increase as well, although, ECM/Profitec always seems to price themselves high, and Achille has some negatives going for it.

Part of me has been thinking, like I said, "what if the M21 really is perfect for me, maybe thinking about levers still is silly", and considering indefinitely waiting. But the price differences make me think maybe not. Waiting for HOST may be advantageous....I doubt the odds are high of a new "Bosco group" appearing that's more attractive while better priced than either of these options...but I guess stranger things have happened.


The silly sight glass and pump kind of make the Achille less desirable, plus the weight difference...extra 10lb doesn't sound like much until you try lifting the thing to and fro the counter....I can barely drop the 72lb Duetto from the counter myself. I can, in a pinch hoist it myself though it wouldn't be ideal. The Profitec I could probably lower, but not hoist. The Achille....not a chance either way. But it is a $300+ price difference for what is arguably a less physically robust machine.

I'd love to remove the pump from an Achille it and just put it on the mains. That would solve the pump and the weight in one.. Maybe throw a diaphragm booster pump on the line externally.