Choosing the right spring lever espresso machine - Page 3

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
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BaristaBoy E61
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#21: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

I am tempted by the Profitec Pro 800 because it's a 'dipper' with no need for a pump when direct plumbed, quiet & has a PID controller.

I'm also nagged by the question of, "What if I already have the perfect machine for me (and don't know it)" ?
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

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TheMadTamper (original poster)
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#22: Post by TheMadTamper (original poster) replying to BaristaBoy E61 »

It's funny, if you read this forum enough you get the impression dippers are undesirable.....yet the Boscos are dippers. I don't have a strong opinion on the PID, honestly. It seems a bit excessive on a lever. The good about the PID is easy access to set the boiler temp without opening the case, and less wear & tear on the elements. The bad side is it's worse for steam performance, and my lights annoyingly flicker when a PID is on the line....the M21 has been a nice break from the Duetto's pulsing. (Strangely even my Keurig (commercial) causes the lights flickering. I assume they use rudimentary PIDs.))

No pump is a big deal though. Not because I care about pump noise on rotary machines, but that's a major breakable part to eliminate. I really really don't understand why the Achille runs the pump in plumbed mode. It's the only lever I'm aware of with that issue (other than HX assisted designs.)

It's a very hard call between the machines. Achille is cheaper, more robust physically (or so it looks), and a much bigger boiler. But has that annoying pump, a harder to access chassis, and has what seems like, based on some HB threads, "problematic" sight glass seals for which CCS isn't able to rapidly source parts.

I still wonder at times why ECM/Profitec is *so* highly priced for their machines. The Achille weighs more, *and* has a fairly expensive pro-con pump and motor along with a much larger boiler for a notable lower price. Same is true with various ECM/Profitec E61s. The PID controller adds $100 but that pump should add $250 at least.

I mostly fear the Profitec will feel too "consumer" and too much like the Duetto in hand, versus the more "robust" looking Achille.


I absolutely hear you about "what if I already have the perfect machine for me and don't know it" - I think that all the time! Duetto 2 isn't perfect for me. I love it, it's served me well, and I'm going to refurbish it. But....I recently acquired a Cimbali Jr.....and it's like an espresso dream. Insanely fun to use (I'd not have thought push button automatic was fun, but with the solid HX, it actually is!) , works with my workflow, beautifully robust and rugged, I love the commercial everything about it, and even using the stock 4 hole tip that everyone complains is far too much power, I'm making the best microfoam I've ever made. In many ways, it really is my perfect machine, and I feel silly still looking at the lever.

And yet....it's still...a complicated machine with a lot of parts to break...expensive parts. The lever would keep me running with more ease I think. And levers are always fun to pull. I adore using, and even just looking at the M21 in all its commercial glory, but I wonder if it's best left as a backup machine. I wonder, what if I'm injured or something and can't pull the lever for a period of time (a bruised rib a year or so ago made me think of that...a lever might have been physically unbearable to pull.) Might as well keep it mint and ready rather than wear it out....make a lever the day to day! Or so I keep telling myself. :wink:

I use my machines hard. It's on every morning of the year.....and I'd like to start running it more often in the evening as well.
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Phaedrus
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#23: Post by Phaedrus »

HOST 2019 is right around the corner - perhaps it's best to see what the major vendors have in store for us before making a purchase? Also, a few months ago the Pro800 was $200 cheaper; which made it a no-brainer vs the Achille. Not sure what happened (exchange rates, shipping, etc.) but when WLL updated their site, the price shot up. At the new price, it makes total sense why you would give the Achille a good long look.

Javier
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#24: Post by Javier »

Phaedrus wrote:Also, a few months ago the Pro800 was $200 cheaper; which made it a no-brainer vs the Achille. Not sure what happened (exchange rates, shipping, etc.) but when WLL updated their site, the price shot up. At the new price, it makes total sense why you would give the Achille a good long look.
The Profitec Pro 800 was $2,500 about two years ago. I should have bought it back then, but "overthinking" did not help.
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TheMadTamper (original poster)
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#25: Post by TheMadTamper (original poster) »

Phaedrus wrote:HOST 2019 is right around the corner - perhaps it's best to see what the major vendors have in store for us before making a purchase? Also, a few months ago the Pro800 was $200 cheaper; which made it a no-brainer vs the Achille. Not sure what happened (exchange rates, shipping, etc.) but when WLL updated their site, the price shot up. At the new price, it makes total sense why you would give the Achille a good long look.
Javier wrote:The Profitec Pro 800 was $2,500 about two years ago. I should have bought it back then, but "overthinking" did not help.
That's all extremely interesting about the price differences. I had not realized that, and it's starting to make a lot of sense what I'm seeing. I assume that means Achille will have a price increase as well, although, ECM/Profitec always seems to price themselves high, and Achille has some negatives going for it.

Part of me has been thinking, like I said, "what if the M21 really is perfect for me, maybe thinking about levers still is silly", and considering indefinitely waiting. But the price differences make me think maybe not. Waiting for HOST may be advantageous....I doubt the odds are high of a new "Bosco group" appearing that's more attractive while better priced than either of these options...but I guess stranger things have happened.


The silly sight glass and pump kind of make the Achille less desirable, plus the weight difference...extra 10lb doesn't sound like much until you try lifting the thing to and fro the counter....I can barely drop the 72lb Duetto from the counter myself. I can, in a pinch hoist it myself though it wouldn't be ideal. The Profitec I could probably lower, but not hoist. The Achille....not a chance either way. But it is a $300+ price difference for what is arguably a less physically robust machine.

I'd love to remove the pump from an Achille it and just put it on the mains. That would solve the pump and the weight in one.. Maybe throw a diaphragm booster pump on the line externally.
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Brandon
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#26: Post by Brandon »

Sorry I took so long responding. I didn't notice the notification.
TheMadTamper wrote: Does it actually have a more commercial build on the exterior, say, more like an Elektra Sixties than a Duetto or Giotto, physically?

I honestly can't tell you. It is a more commercial build than my Bezzera Mitica, but I have never used any of those other machines.

How are the shorter feet working out a few more weeks in under standard cabinets? And with lever pulls on them all the time?

They have been working well. They were sturdy feet to begin with, and I have not had any problems with them.

With that massive uninsulated boiler...how is it managing in the summer? Is it a sauna near it, or does it contain its heat as well as any other espresso machine?

I think that overall it contains its heat well. It doesn't feel too much hotter around it than my Mitica did with its 2 liter boiler. I bought some stuff to insulate it, though, and when I open it up I am going to take care of that. I was planning on insulating the Mitica before I got the Achille anyway. I don't keep cups on top and I would rather save the energy.

How do you, and how difficult is it to take the shell off for repair? It looks from pictures like a single bent-U shape....that sounds REALLY painful for on-counter repairs...

I have not yet taken it apart (which is pretty surprising because I love to tinker with machines), but it looks like it is just a few easily accessible screws to get it off. It at least appears like it will be easier to disassemble than my Mitica. The mitica had separate panels but most of the screws were hard to get to. The big downside of the Achille is the huge single bent piece of metal.

IS there a dedicated counter-weight installed, and if so, where? (I see it in no pictures?) Or is the weight just the weight of the bare machine with no additional weights?

I am not sure (see above). When I take it apart I will snap some pics and upload them.

Are you running it on a 15A 110? I can't find real info on the power. The manual says 1700W, Chris's site says 1400W, and another HB'er says their plate says 1600W. (Nobody agrees on weight either. Chris says 88lbs, the manual PDF says 38.2kgs (84.2lbs), and another site says 36.2kgs (79.8lbs, not much more than the Pro 800.)

It is running just fine on 15/110. I am not sure of the exact wattage. I will look later. As far as weight, I was able to put it on the counter and take it off fairly easily. No idea on exact numbers, though.

Basically my love of commercial build (and the large boiler) makes me favor the Achille. I don't think I'd be happy with a "prosumer" feeling machine, if Pro 800 feels more "prosumer."

Yet the things making me lean toward Profitec are:
Weight (78lbs is barely more than Duetto. 84 is sketchy. 88 is a disaster.)

Panels are each separate panels on each side, much easier to open and work on on the counter. (Though you have to unscrew them from beneath so it's only a slight improvement.)

Insulated boiler.


Also, I dislike the Achille's pump. A plumbed lever shouldn't need a pump. I did talk to Chris's staff briefly, and they said the pump could be removed, the fittings to bypass it would be a pain to source, but they don't recommend it, if it doesn't fill right you fry the element etc. However I think the only way I could take an Achille is with the pump removed.... both the weight, and the silence which is half the thrill of a lever. (Seriously, even 4 group Boscos are line pressure filled, why make Achille use a pump?) So I'd HAVE to mod it to strip the pump if I got it.

Actually, the pump is one of the reasons that I wanted the Achille. The low hum of a rotary pump does not bother me at all. Plus mine is super quiet even for a rotary pump. The kicking on/off of the solenoid is much louder than the pump itself. It seems like it is a commercial quality solenoid because it is much louder than my Mitica solenoid as well. The pump only kicks on once every few shots. It is not like a pump machine. In contrast, the obnoxious noise of a vibe pump is something I cannot handle. Sure, if you plumb it in on the Pro 800 it goes away, but I kept thinking "what if I one day move somewhere that I can't plumb in?" In my mind, a vibe pump should never go on a machine costing almost 3k. It is frustrating that you can't easily disable the pump, though. I would still prefer silence. Eventually I will probably bypass the pump, but I am okay with it for now. I am not too surprised that Chris's advises against bypassing the pump. I am sure that the last thing that a distributor wants is a bunch of people modifying their machines, screwing things up, and then calling them to fix the mistakes. I seriously doubt that it would have trouble filling the boiler with no pump, provided that you have adequate line pressure.

Where's Ken when we need him? I think he's the only one here to have used both machines! :P

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TheMadTamper (original poster)
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#27: Post by TheMadTamper (original poster) »

Brandon wrote:Sorry I took so long responding. I didn't notice the notification.
Thanks for the big reply! You're probably the only user reference there is for the Achille right now. There's a few other owners on the forum but most of them haven't been active in some time, and the attention has since filtered to the Profitec.

I'm definitely curious whenever you end up inside it to hear your experience opening it, and taking a look at some pics. (The counterweight presence, or lack of, really makes me curious as well.)

Surprising that it doesn't feel much hotter around it than the Mitica. That doesn't strike me as a "hot" machine. My Cimbali is *quite* a bit hotter near it than the Duetto even with the insulated boiler, but it sounds like despite the big boiler, the Achille isn't much worse than that. I'm definitely curious to hear about your insulating adventure. I've never tried to self insulate a boiler...seems like a ton of little annoyances, but I must admit I was very tempted when I was using the Salvatore.

I agree on the pump, actually. No machine that price should have a vibe (then again Cimbalis did for many years, too...) If I were going tanked-only the Achille would hands down be the winner for that reason. For plumbed...it's a double sword. I actually like the idea of quiet, and also like "espresso machine sounds" :D So it appeals to me in a weird way. I'd be curious what your solenoid looks like when you have pics. Any pic I've seen inside it online shows a normal little square Parker. But what you describe sounds like my experience with the Cimbali. I was looking inside and couldn't identify this huge black plastic part at first. Then I realized it was a solenoid in a size I'd never seen before. It has a snapping sound to match!

Out of curiosity (this would apply to Profitecs too) for someone who's never used one, how would you describe the force required to pull the double-spring lever? You're a bit tougher than I if you could lift an 80-88lb (depending on who you ask) machine without too much difficulty to the counter :) But some report that it takes a fair amount of force, some report that it's not THAT difficult to pull. Some people say it's a 2-hand job, and some videos show people slamming them down with one arm while not paying attention. Hard to get a feel of what the pull is like, both on the arm, and on the front of the counter!

(Bosco owners can't chime in, they're single spring!)
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TheMadTamper (original poster)
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#28: Post by TheMadTamper (original poster) »

Or not... Wow i just checked Chris's website... Looks like they're overhauling it for the first time ever. In it's current state they only have 7 commercial machines, all the levers including achille are gone, and the multigroup machines are all gone. I assume the site is just really really broken with a very bad rollout, otherwise Chris just downsized out of commercial entirely and has an inventory the size of Clive!

Startling to see, i was just checking a few things there yesterday, and I'm so used to the old format. It was an institution! Hopefully they're still stocking achille... And at the same price .
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BaristaBoy E61
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#29: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

It looks like the site is being overhauled. This is too unprofessional for Chris' Coffee.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

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TheMadTamper (original poster)
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#30: Post by TheMadTamper (original poster) »

The car logo ....i just can't let go of the car logo. Forget that commercial now consists of 7 items total, most of them Bunn bulk grinders. Forget that the front page has a 404 not found. Forget that every page has site templates for "put your site wide promotion here: optional button". Forget that the machine i was actually looking at has vanished and the link is broken. And forget that amidst all this they emailed me to tell me theres a new look, and they created a new account for me on a website broken enough that i wouldn't log in for a free GS/3.

All that will (probably?) Be fixed.

It's the car logo that has me bewildered. I see it's in their back story that Chris started out in the back of the car... But.... It's a well known coffee store. Why is the logo the car the company started in 44 years ago when a few hours ago it was a coffee cup? That's like Burger King changing their logo to a sail boat because they launched their IPO near a harbor.

I kind of feel bad for Chris. It's not going to hurt him but i can't see this helping. Not what i expected to see, that's for sure.
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