Well you guys are mostly doing a good job convincing me to go with the Profitec! The Boscos sure are nice, but the size, weight, and 20A requirements certainly won't work for me. The 70% price difference, plus the fact that it won't actually fit on my current counter, and won't actually run on my current electric, plus the hassle of self-importing makes the Bosco kind of undesirable (well, ok, it's desirable. A Speedster is also desirable, but it's also not on my short list.)

I admit I have a preference for joystick knobs than rotary, though the fact that the majority of commercial machines have rotary (including the Bosco) eases my mind on that. I was happy to move to joysticks on the Duetto from the rotary on the Salvatore HX (ironically he ships joysticks now.) But I'll adapt back...

maxbmello wrote:Clive has been nothing but awesome! But honestly I don't expect to need much support with this machine. It's foolproof. I don't expect many/any repairs for decade(s).

I drop the screen quarterly when I remove the lever/spring. It's least to remove by using the lever arm to push it out from the top when the piston and spring are removed. Be sure to not use too much Dow on the group gasket. The first time I did, and the PF didn't lock in very easily. After cleaning and replacing, it's now buttery smooth.

The only machine I really look at these days is a Bosco, and even then I don't *really* see a point. With a 3.5L plumbed in lever machine, it's a joy to use every single morning, commands a presence in my kitchen, and makes the best shots I've ever had.

You're really selling me here by confirming my preconceived biases

That's an interesting trick for pushing the screen out. I'm not sure I'd want to "risk" marring the handle of my lever by using it as a push tool, but I'm a wooden dowel or PVC tube or something might be a safer way to do the same. That's one to file under the "things you can only do on a lever" category! It definitely sounds more fun than gouging at an E61 with a spoon, knife, or trying to shimmy it off with bare fingers. Especially with my IMS screen that has no lip on the screen so a spoon can't really grab it.

AMac wrote:I'm not sure if you've taken it into account but I would not call the Pro 800 a fast steamer. It takes me about a minute per 6 oz to get it up to 140°.

In the morning when I'm pressed for time, I start preinfusion, start steam, start extraction, end extraction, and end steam about 15 seconds later. Can't remember his name but I do it like the guy with the five levers where he puts the tip into the milk and lets it steam without him touching it.

That's an interesting, and somewhat cautionary detail. I do tend to steam double 12-18oz pitchers as part of a weekday morning "to go cup" routine daily, so steam performance does matter to me. Not big on cappas at home, but the mega latte keeps the day from turning miserable on office coffee. Watching Ken's video, it didn't look so slow for him though. Similarly, the video you reference on the big 4-group Bosco (I love that video as well!)....that also seemed to be a fairly slow steamer compared to your average LM machine since he had time to tend to the groups and the pours while the steam just kept going. With a 3.5L boiler it's the exact same size as a Linea Mini which is a steam monster, albeit this isn't going to be cranked up to the same pressure the dedicated steam boiler is on there. I'd have thought it could steam for days, unless the PID is set for a low temp for cooler brewing. I wonder if it could be the tip? It comes with the 4-hole, and I know they sell the 2-hole for those that want it slower (!) which doesn't add up. AFAIK Profitec's female threaded wands should be compatible with La Spaziale tips, plus QM, Rocket, etc....which I *think* is really a Simonelli thread. If it's just the tip, there should be plenty of options. If it's the no-burn wand being too small diameter, or the boiler not having as much steam headroom as it looks, that could be problematic though.

I've always been disappointed with my Duetto's steaming ability as well. It's not "slow" but it's never really been consistent at producing microfoam. It has a slightly smaller steam boiler than the HX boiler on my old Salvatore, but I have it up to 1.3 or so bar. The steam output always seems "wet" and always seems to fizzle out part way through steaming a big pitcher, where you can tell the pressure just isn't behind it. Running it in 15A with brew priority, IMO, is probably part of that problem (and another reason why DBs don't really interest me much anymore, unless it's something with a saturated group.) I think I'd be happier with "slow and steady toward microfoam" than I am with "fast-ish but anemic and inconsistent"

TheMadTamper wrote:Well you guys are mostly doing a good job convincing me to go with the Profitec! The Boscos sure are nice, but the size, weight, and 20A requirements certainly won't work for me. The 70% price difference, plus the fact that it won't actually fit on my current counter, and won't actually run on my current electric, plus the hassle of self-importing makes the Bosco kind of undesirable (well, ok, it's desirable. A Speedster is also desirable, but it's also not on my short list.)

I admit I have a preference for joystick knobs than rotary, though the fact that the majority of commercial machines have rotary (including the Bosco) eases my mind on that. I was happy to move to joysticks on the Duetto from the rotary on the Salvatore HX (ironically he ships joysticks now.) But I'll adapt back...

I see the Profitec 800 selling for $2899 on most sites. All in the Bosco would be around $4200 so 45% more not 70%. Bosco gives you a choice of knobs or joysticks. Self importing is a non issue. Bosco ships by DHL or other carriers. They contact you with the Customs fee/duties total, you pay, they deliver.

I was going to say...

If the seller/distributor charges 70% more for a Bosco than the price of a Profitec you ain't getting the best deal for one. I remember in another thread somewhere when someone said they had a friend pay about $5250 for a Bosco with NO add-ons, which is past the ridiculous for price. You could buy a restored 1950's Faema Mercurio, Urania, President, etc for that pricing!

Interesting...yeah, I'd heard it was around the $5000 mark, so that's a pretty big difference.

All that being said, if they can't build a 110/15A version, it would still be a very very lovely paperweight that I still can't fit on the counter without it taking over the sink The more realistic price simply makes me a little more sad that it's not right for me.

Truth be told, if I had a 20A I'd probably have purchased the Izzo Leva. It's a really nice machine on it's own with a slightly (very) weird PF, and it's backed by the techs I know and trust at Cris's. Nice as Bosco is, one can't underestimate the value of who's supporting you through the years! BUT, alas, both are 20A, so both are out of consideration.

I cannot support your cons on the Salvatore, I restored an old 90's Salvatoree HX, everything was off the shelf asides from the boiler, even the element was a Maximatic element same as Cremina. I found it easier to service than an old Bezzera I have that I have yet to find fittings for. Off the shelf solenoids, etc, nothing to be afraid of, built quite like a tank. I want an orange one next time I make it out to California.

Good luck on your decision.

forbeskm wrote:I cannot support your cons on the Salvatore, I restored an old 90's Salvatoree HX, everything was off the shelf asides from the boiler, even the element was a Maximatic element same as Cremina. I found it easier to service than an old Bezzera I have that I have yet to find fittings for. Off the shelf solenoids, etc, nothing to be afraid of, built quite like a tank. I want an orange one next time I make it out to California.

Good luck on your decision.

Glad to hear support for the Salvatore! His machines don't get all that much recognition. I agree they're built like tanks. I have a 2010 S.E.S. HX sitting around. The build is just beautiful. The physical build quality I'd liken more to commercial than prosumer machines...it's more like a Cimbali or Astoria inside. The SS panels he uses are a bit thin, not a problem if you go with powdered panels, but I'd be in fear of scratching those...otherwise, what's inside is rock solid. And the zero-flex for the lever is appealing. It's the only thing short of a Bosco or Izzo that solid. Though I don't know if he's using a bit more obscure parts today than in the 90's. Those heating elements, I know back in 2010 they were highlighting he makes them himself. I doubt he makes the actual coil, but the mount and such seems custom. He changes parts from time to time though, so early levers don't seem to be the same spec as current ones. And his elements, even if he's not making the mountings or the coils in the levers, they may be a custom order rather than a drop-in from a commercial machine. I forget the names of a few of the element companies...but they do custom runs to spec. Fine if you're buying 50, but not fine if you need one.

Part of me still considers his lever. I was very interested, but hesitant (once he retires, can you get a part...or an answer on what threading you even need anywhere? Let alone an element (or the ability to track down an element that will fit?) And Wendy hasn't been particularly responsive on that front. I do know he has an apprentice in the shop, but without knowing if there's any plans for the business to continue long term etc...it is a bit of an unknown. Granted the same question applies to Bosco (even Kees), but those are larger companies so it's a bit more certain of longer term availability.

I do envy you getting to go over there and purchase though. I get the impression there's a different buying experience in person than as a mail order shop. They're not really best set up for that kind of model. I haven't ruled it out entirely, but it's not quite in the forefront either. It's hard to replace "call/email the dealer, get a part number, order it." If I got it, I'd be super thrilled at first that I made the right call...then over the years I think I'd start getting nervous about it.

I will add I am not your normal buyer. I don't mind a challenge and what I really want is a 1950's Faema or Gaggia, Chrome everywhere, talk about parts and service hard to find . But the machines I think stand alone as works of art and espresso, and not something one sees daily. Londinium, Izzo, etc for me, do not appeal aesthetically (by all means likely fantastic machines from what I read, just not the look I want).

I have had elements rebuilt from Gabor, but thats getting off topic.

There is a nice episode that shows the making of the Salvatore , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBCcrJ2EsFU

Something to me about the non mass produced, the Salvatore's, the reconditioned by Maltoni, and others I have seen on HB who restore the old 1950's machines. But now I am geeting off topic, pictures please when you get you machine!

Javier wrote:Maybe you can persuade them into building their "compact" lever using a La San Marco group (rather than the current Condor group). Just to have another option. I know they are recently using the La San Marco group on their bigger lever machines. I already asked Wendy, and she replied it won't happen.... But you never know.

The year before they released their "compact" lever, I basically e-mailed them the same inquiry (e.g., "will you guys ever build a small lever machine?") on a regular basis. And then one day, out of the blue, Wendy e-mailed me a picture of their first "compact" lever machine (before it was announced).

The La San Marco's are neat looking levers, though I wonder, with the exposed spring design, does that let dust and dirt into the piston chamber more easily and lead to etching of the cylinder over time? There has to be a reason the CMA group gained a lot more popularity even with KvdW. Actually forget that. I want an actual La San Marco 1-group Leva Luxury now....that thing is a work of beauty!

It's a shame, I don't think Salvatore ever quite got a handle on the online ordering business. Most of the time when I hear someone talking about them, it's someone in the local area who was able to visit in person, etc. I feel like if you live nearby you get a very different experience buying from him than online orders that almost feel like you're bothering them by asking questions, cross your fingers, and hope for a reply. Beautiful machines, and so well made, though (ECM/Profitec really needs to take notes on their welded frames....)

I actually need a cable for my old SES...it's in storage, but the "error" lamp wire that goes to the back of the Giemme is damaged. I figure I'll wait for my month old emails about levers to get a response before asking about parts....

forbeskm wrote:I will add I am not your normal buyer. I don't mind a challenge and what I really want is a 1950's Faema or Gaggia, Chrome everywhere, talk about parts and service hard to find . But the machines I think stand alone as works of art and espresso, and not something one sees daily. Londinium, Izzo, etc for me, do not appeal aesthetically (by all means likely fantastic machines from what I read, just not the look I want).

I have had elements rebuilt from Gabor, but thats getting off topic.

There is a nice episode that shows the making of the Salvatore , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBCcrJ2EsFU

Something to me about the non mass produced, the Salvatore's, the reconditioned by Maltoni, and others I have seen on HB who restore the old 1950's machines. But now I am geeting off topic, pictures please when you get you machine!

That actually sounds fun. My daily machine I can't see being one that when it goes down for service is off the bench for weeks or months while I hunt down parts...but that sounds fun as a secondary machine! The main machine I just go into a catatonic stat if it's down more than 24 hours. The very thought of gas station coffee might keep me awake with nightmares. Getting custom elements rebuilt though...that sounds less fun.

Brandon wrote:Just last week I got a QM Achille, so I am still in the honeymoon phase a little bit. I was going back and forth between that and the Pro 800, but then I saw an excellent deal on a gently used one and went that direction. So far I love this machine. I think that it gets far too little love on HB. I have made probably 30 shots on it so far, and I have not had an undrinkable one yet, including when I was just dialing in. I like milk drinks, though, so I am probably not as discerning as some. One thing I did not accurately anticipate is the sheer size of this lever. My cabinets are 18.25 inches off of my counter, and this machine was 18.5 inches tall (the body of it, not the lever). I happened to have some spare feet that I took off of my HX machine, so I was able to make it fit, but barely. It is also wide and deep and heavy. It made my HX machine (Bezzera Mitica TOP) look like a play toy. The massive boiler on this thing is amazing, though. It has steam for days. I used to work at a coffee shop, so I was always disappointed by the steaming of my HX machine. The Achille is also a walk up and pull machine. As far as back to back shots, I only use one pf. When a shot is done, I pull half way down on the lever and unlock the pf and prep the next shot. With that routine, my second and third shots have no bitterness/sourness. I do not know whether or not it could handle the workflow of two pfs, but it has a fast turnaround time. I tend to favor tighter grinds as well, and I have not had an issue with pf sneezes. I have not had a stalled shot yet, though, so that might be interesting. In the standard configuration, the pump does run when it is filling the boiler, but it is a super quiet rotary pump. It is actually much quieter than the rotary pump in my mitica. I may one day look at disabling the pump, but it honestly doesn't bother me that much.

So I'm still in the "I can't decide" mode. I'd all but decided on Pro 800, but having recently had some time with an M21, I've become VERY addicted to commercial builds....and the Achille, at least in pictures appears more commercial. Since you're the resident Achille supporter in this thread, I figured you may be able to answer a few questions!

Does it actually have a more commercial build on the exterior, say, more like an Elektra Sixties than a Duetto or Giotto, physically?

How are the shorter feet working out a few more weeks in under standard cabinets? And with lever pulls on them all the time?

With that massive uninsulated boiler...how is it managing in the summer? Is it a sauna near it, or does it contain its heat as well as any other espresso machine?

How do you, and how difficult is it to take the shell off for repair? It looks from pictures like a single bent-U shape....that sounds REALLY painful for on-counter repairs...

IS there a dedicated counter-weight installed, and if so, where? (I see it in no pictures?) Or is the weight just the weight of the bare machine with no additional weights?

Are you running it on a 15A 110? I can't find real info on the power. The manual says 1700W, Chris's site says 1400W, and another HB'er says their plate says 1600W. (Nobody agrees on weight either. Chris says 88lbs, the manual PDF says 38.2kgs (84.2lbs), and another site says 36.2kgs (79.8lbs, not much more than the Pro 800.)

Basically my love of commercial build (and the large boiler) makes me favor the Achille. I don't think I'd be happy with a "prosumer" feeling machine, if Pro 800 feels more "prosumer."

Yet the things making me lean toward Profitec are:
Weight (78lbs is barely more than Duetto. 84 is sketchy. 88 is a disaster.)

Panels are each separate panels on each side, much easier to open and work on on the counter. (Though you have to unscrew them from beneath so it's only a slight improvement.)

Insulated boiler.


Also, I dislike the Achille's pump. A plumbed lever shouldn't need a pump. I did talk to Chris's staff briefly, and they said the pump could be removed, the fittings to bypass it would be a pain to source, but they don't recommend it, if it doesn't fill right you fry the element etc. However I think the only way I could take an Achille is with the pump removed.... both the weight, and the silence which is half the thrill of a lever. (Seriously, even 4 group Boscos are line pressure filled, why make Achille use a pump?) So I'd HAVE to mod it to strip the pump if I got it.

Where's Ken when we need him? I think he's the only one here to have used both machines!