Can the DE1 simulate a cheap high pressure espresso machine

#1: Post by **DamianWarS** » September 9th, 2020, 5:00 am

I'm looking to getting some DE1pro/xl machines for the training environment because I think the range of the DE1 to simulate other machines is great for a learning environment plus its ability of course to go beyond. I was trying to find some information on the pump pressure but I couldn't really find how high it could go if I wanted to try and simulate one of those cheaper machines rated at really high pressure. Measuring from the pump what sort of pressure can the DE deliver or can you this sort of 15 bar cheap machine profile from the DE1?

September 9th, 2020, 12:42 pm

Interesting question. The DE1 would definitely make a great educational tool, though it would kind of be like learning how to count on a graphing calculator.

Anyway, the official literature on the DE1 cites a range of "0 to 9.5 bar". I don't have one so I can't verify this first-hand, but I would assume those numbers to be correct.

#3: Post by **MNate** » September 9th, 2020, 1:24 pm

My impression is that those cheap machines don't actually produce 15 bar of pressure anyway, at least not at the portafilter. It's just an odd marketing ploy.

#4: Post by **jevenator** » September 9th, 2020, 1:34 pm

You can set a 12 bar profile at the puck with the DE1. Flow profiling really teaches you to dial in a grind size because if it's too fine then it'll overshoot Up to 12 bar when you want only 8-9 bars of pressure.

#5: Post by **Stavey** » September 9th, 2020, 2:23 pm

I've had my DE1+ for a couple of months and I have to say it insane what you can do with this thing . Honestly I think a better question is what can't it do. I think the only thing that can't be adjusted is pressure over 11/12 bar . This is to prevent damage to the machine. Aside from that everything can be adjusted.

#6: Post by **Bluecold** » September 9th, 2020, 2:31 pm

jevenator wrote:You can set a 12 bar profile at the puck with the DE1. Flow profiling really teaches you to dial in a grind size because if it's too fine then it'll overshoot Up to 12 bar when you want only 8-9 bars of pressure.

Wait this sounds confusing. You're saying that when you're flow profiling, you're also worried if the coffee brews at 9 or 11 bars? Doesn't this make the difference between flow and pressure profiling purely academic?

#7: Post by **Jeff** » September 9th, 2020, 2:33 pm

I agree with those that suggest that a "15-bar" machine can't achieve 15 bar under flow rates associated with espresso extraction. /downloads/ ... models.pdf shows Ulka's specs. 2 ml/s is 120 cc/min and a new Ulka E5 ("15-bar pump") can only manage 11-13 bar at that flow rate. Who knows what pump is in those cheap machines, but I would doubt the performance exceeds that of the Ulka.

Another interesting bit is that I have heard that pucks that have somewhere over in the neighborhood of 11-12 bar applied to them tend to have decreasing flow with increasing pressure.

Edit: Later posts suggest that this effect may occur as low as 9-10 bar.

#8: Post by **Jeff** » September 9th, 2020, 2:36 pm

Bluecold wrote:Wait this sounds confusing. You're saying that when you're flow profiling, you're also worried if the coffee brews at 9 or 11 bars? Doesn't this make the difference between flow and pressure profiling purely academic?

When you're extracting under a constant-flow profile, the extraction pressure is determined by the effective puck resistance. As a result, you need to carefully adjust your grind so that you're extracting in the "good for espresso" range, typically somewhere in the 4-9 bar range. It's the analogue of adjusting your grind so that when under 8 bar of pressure (or whatever it might be), you get somewhere around 1-2 ml/s of flow in a pressure-driven machine, pump or lever.

Edit: Flow-driven profiles are believed to have advantages over pressure-driven ones as flow-driven ones don't "run away" as the puck erodes, either through extraction or channeling. If, for example, a channel opens up in a constant-pressure situation, the local resistance drops, more flow goes through the channel (as the pressure is constant), likely exacerbating the channel and entering a macro death spiral. With a flow-based profile, as a channel opens up, the applied pressure drops to keep the overall flow constant. While I'm not sure that this is "self-healing", it certainly seems as though it is more forgiving of both natural erosion and that of imperfect puck preparation.

#9: Post by **jevenator** » September 9th, 2020, 7:32 pm

The time I use a flow profile for either the blooming espresso & the Rao Allonge. Both are very different but the goal is to hit that target flow rate at a particular pressure range.

Another reason why I use it, as an "if" statement if my flow is too fast when I am pressure profiling. Say that I grind a bit too coarse or my puck degrades much quicker than expected for a variety of faults then I would want to switch over to a flow profile to 2.0 ml/s if it rises above 2.5ml/s for example. That would save the shot.

September 9th, 2020, 7:57 pm

MNate wrote:My impression is that those cheap machines don't actually produce 15 bar of pressure anyway, at least not at the portafilter. It's just an odd marketing ploy.

Not exactly 15 bar. But close. The pressure/flow chart for the garden variety Ulka E5 series pumps that are everywhere from prosumer to Nespresso, show nominally 13 bar at a typical espresso extraction flow rate of 1.5ml/s. Obviously much higher than most of us would find ideal. Which is why we seek means to have a lower pressure for that flow.

I don't think John uses Ulka pumps for his machines. But I wouldn't be surprised if they could exceed that pressure if his pump controller would allow it.

Yes, it's bizarre claim a pump pressure so far above what most baristas consider optimum as a selling point.

-Peter