Sactogeoff wrote:

"correct" temp? Use a high quality machine. A lot of the machine's design is to ensure the temp falls within the acceptable range. I find it hard to believe a quality machine like an Appartamento or ECM V doesn't fall into this category.
Use a water softening pouch in the tank

The design of the machine will dictate what the user needs to do in order to get within the acceptable temperature range.

It's important to understand this before making a decision on a machine. Many have reported changing for a double boiler or a different design after struggling managing the temperature of their heat exchanger machine. But, many heat exchanger owners are perfectly happy as well.

A heat exchanger system idles at a temperature that is too hot to brew espresso. You need to perform a cooling flush. No matter the machine, PID or not. Except for the new MaraX because of the temperature priority given to brew vs steam.

So it's not as simple as, a good quality machine will get you within acceptable range...

Rocket Appartamento and ECM V slim are quality machines. Their workflow and temperature management will be different VS a Lelit MaraX, a Breville 920XL or a La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi let's say.

There's lots to read about Heat exchangers VS double boilers. I would strongly recommend doing so before getting a machine.

Espresso Machines 101

Managing the Brew Temperature of HX Espresso Machines#_heatExchangers

Cheers!

I'd strongly advise against a heat exchanger if you don't want to learn a special flushing routine. Not very difficult really but still more than my SO wanted to do. Appartamento and Mechanika are quality machines but they won't completely prevent excess temperatures unless proper care is taken.

Better use the scale to measure espresso output rather than volume so it's independent of crema.

So If I'm following along correctly here. Anything short of a DB machine presents workflow inconsistencies which are generally unacceptable for a daily user. Which makes the cost of entry (both money and time) significant.

About that Moccamaster.....

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

I know you put down the Breville Oracle and the Breville Dual Boiler & Grinder.... But my family and friends that have gone from an automatic machine have taken that route and could not be happier... Even with all I have tried to steer them into something similar to what I have, which is no where near a high-end setup...

You see, they do not care for the complexity or cost of something different... they just want something that works and is simple. At least they know the basics... fresh beans and grind before making a shot... everything else, they can care less...

I am still working on on of them to try to bring him to this side of the madness... but his Oracle is too new for him to even consider it.

Not sure if you have seen this thread. Worth a reading...

Upgrade from Breville Dual Boiler ??

I really want to love the Oracle. But just on Amazon alone, never mind the forums and everywhere else. Just on Amazon 16%!!! of the reviews are 1 star due to mechanical failures. That's a problem. And for 2 grand. That's almost a 1 in 5 shot at the machine failing (that's not statistically correct but you get my gist). It's a guarantee the machine will end up in a dumpster within 4yrs.

https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/ ... filter-bar

Sactogeoff wrote:So If I'm following along correctly here. Anything short of a DB machine presents workflow inconsistencies which are generally unacceptable for a daily user. Which makes the cost of entry (both money and time) significant.

I wouldn't let the above comments about flushing scare you off of a HX machine. Sure, operating one is a bit of a dance, but so is everything in life (riding a bike, driving a car, walking without falling down, ...). It truly is no big deal, unless perhaps you are working with a delicate bean that requires very good control of brew temperature. For general HX temp management, you can see the how-to: /hx-love.html. Keep in mind that the HX design has been around for a long time and thousands of HX machines are sold each year, which should tell you something about ease of use to get satisfactory performance. If normal people couldn't use them to good effect, they wouldn't be so commonplace. As you mentioned, good HX machines are designed to hit the right brew temperature, and the cooling flushes needed to do so are part of the instructions for their use.

FWIW, here is my workflow:

1. Machine starts warming on wemo switch before I wake up.
2. I walk up to machine, and pull water into two cappuccino cups to warm them [this doubles as the main cooling flush; basically pull water until shortly after flash boiling stops. easy.]
3. Unlock and dry portafilter, tare scale.
4. Dose 18g from grinder to portafilter (I have electronic dosing, so this is painless, and takes maybe 7-8sec).
5. Level and tamp (I am old school, no fancy leveler or tamper needed).
6. Pull first shot until desired weight. While shot is going, I fill a 12oz milk pitcher about halfway.
7. Unlock portafilter, knock out puck, rinse portafilter under group [this rinse doubles as a short cooling flush before next shot].
8. Dry portafilter, grind / dose / tamp, and re-lock into group. Start pulling second shot, and simultaneously steam milk. Both finish around the same time (the Slim takes ~30sec to steam the milk for the 2 capps).
9. Pour some latte art into the two cups (which I am only okay at, but hey, why not).
10. Rinse pitcher, knock out puck and rinse portafilter, do water backflush with spare portafilter equipped with blind basket. Empty drip tray, wipe everything down, turn off machine and refill tank to full. Enjoy coffee.

The whole thing takes 10min.

As you can see, the cooling flushes serve dual purpose in my routine. These are things I would do anyway.

I typically use beans that are pretty forgiving (e.g., I am working my way through a bag of Redbird espresso now), but I have on occasion used lighter roast beans that require more attention to get the best result (e.g., WDT to manage clumps, and a bit more careful flushing routine). However, such additional care is a characteristic of which beans you use. A super-auto wouldn't solve this problem. In any case, I can pretty much guarantee a good semi-auto will get you much improved coffee compared to a super-auto at the same price point, without too much fuss. Will there always be room to be more scientific and explore the effect of various parameters on different beans? Sure, but this is an adventure you don't have to embark on right away, or ever, if you don't want to. Many of the users on this forum have gone down that path, so bear in mind that their advice reflects this perspective and the elevated expectations that go along with it.

As far as water goes, I'd recommend going with the rpavlis recipe instead of a softening pouch. The former is guaranteed to be scale-free, saving you maintenance headaches in the future (regardless of super- or semi-auto). It is really easy: basically consists of a pinch of baking soda in distilled water. (See exact instructions, e.g., here: Yet another "how's my water?" post). It takes essentially no more time than using tap water.

I'm not necessarily trying to say that a HX machine is a better option than others that have been proposed (e.g., the BDB). I am just trying to offer my perspective, which is that HX machines are capable of making great coffee without too much fuss. You don't have to be a barista to use one. If you can commit 10-15 minutes a day to making coffee, then you'll probably manage to make some pretty great coffee.

Finally, I can understand the "I don't want to be a barista" perspective. My wife is like this. It just means that I am the designated coffee-maker in the house. But, that's okay, I enjoy it (the process and the results).

Today's HX designs do not flash boil, those with restrictors and PIDs. And so the reference given above didn't work in my HX. In these newer HX designs, the flush is difficult to judge without an external thermometer. Also, in restrictor designs, how do you know when your group is back up to temperature and you can pull the next shot? There is absolutely no visual way to tell without a group thermometer. I worked on this for a year with mine before I could get stable brew temps for successive shots. And I read all the resources here. The restrictors can make the thermosiphon reheat take a while.

Now the new HX Manuals will give a table that states to set the PID to X to get brew water temp Y. The table is just plain wrong. HX designs don't work that way.

Now I'll admit, let it warm up for 40 minutes, do a 5 second flush and you are likely within 5F of 200. But I had issues with successive shots determining how long to wait before I could get next shot. And I wanted a better sense of the brew water temp. I made many a drink for friends where if you were third in line you got a bad shot.

Without the flash boil you don't get any visual reference. Many HX designs with PID. are now like this.

In this thread.. Rocket Appartamento boiler temperature and flush time
the new owner of an Appartemento (an HX) actually wired up a fan to a PID with a temp sensor attached to the group to cool his group to a sufficient temperature to pull shots.. (granted a bit of a fun project for him).But he was having issues finding a suitable flushing routine. And I don't want to dump on HX designs, because absolutely they can pull beautiful espresso..(I have one) but the temperature management is no where near as easy as on a dual boiler. (with the possible exception of the MaraX). Actually the older designs quoted (that do flash boil) are easier to use.

Bluenoser wrote:Today's HX designs do not flash boil, those with restrictors and PIDs. [...] Without the flash boil you don't get any visual reference. Many HX designs with PID. are now like this.

Restrictors may shorten the length of the flush needed, but flash boiling will still occur if superheated water leaves the group. I can't speak for the Profitec 500, but on the Slim, it is quite clear visually looking at the water exiting the portafilter spout: the water starts with a noticeable turbulence due to the boiling, and then settles. It is also obvious just looking at the water coming through the screen without the portafilter locked in the group. I agree that a group thermometer will help you hit target temps more easily, but HX machines existed before group thermometers, and people were still brewing good espresso with them. I personally don't use a group thermometer, and go by taste. Is there room for improvement, sure, but nevertheless I find I am able to consistently make better coffee than I can get in pretty much any cafe (and there are many good ones near me, so it isn't an empty claim).

Sactogeoff wrote: This can't be the rocket science that some enthusiasts make it out to be. Although it allows for that. If someone wants to go all the way down the rabbit hole. Just like photography or cycling. There has to be a level of "very good" that I hope can be achieved by using best practices. Right?

We should keep in mind what was originally being asked: Can one get good coffee from a HX machine without too much fuss? In my opinion, the answer is an unequivocal yes. A separate question is whether you can improve by introducing tighter control over the brew temp parameter (e.g., via group thermometer, or DB with PID). The answer is again yes, but I would argue that the improvement gained by going from super-auto to no-fuss-HX is larger than one gains by going from no-fuss-HX to gimme-fuss-HX. As I've said before, my experience is that the jump from no-fuss to gimme-fuss takes on greater importance as one moves to more delicate roasts. Maybe I've got simple tastes, but I tend to prefer more traditional roasts that also happen to be easier to pull consistently without much fuss.

Sactogeoff wrote:So If I'm following along correctly here. Anything short of a DB machine presents workflow inconsistencies which are generally unacceptable for a daily user...

Nope... A lot of folks using HX machines without problems. You just need to add a cooling flush to your workflow. That is it. Simple as lifting the lever, letting water fall into the dip tray for a few seconds and continuing with making your espresso.

The thing is that you have to realize that you are going from one-push button do it all machine to now having to:

• Get a good grinder. More important than the espresso machine.
• Dial the grinder for the beans you are using. You had to do some of this in your fully automatic machine, issue is that it is more critical to get this right with a pro-consumer machine... So weight, distribution, tamping all come into play... seems complex but becomes second nature with time... but you have to start... so at first it will be a significant change from you you and your SO are doing today...
• Put the new espresso machine on a timer so that it is to full operating temperature way before you need to use it in the morning... there is no walking up to these kind of machines, turning on the switch, wait a few minutes and use... nope... You need a timer so that it is on an hour before you needed (1/2, but I have mine set for an hour before I get up).

There will be some compromises so that you make it easy for the SO... Any new coffee, when changing type of beans, you will have to dial in the grind so that the SO does not have to deal with that...

If that is still the route you want to take, just focus now on finding the best combination of a machine with a grinder under 3K. To make it easier on the SO, the grinder should be one that would grind the same amount every time (time based or weight based)

Or, just buy another fully automatic machine... get better/fresh coffee beans and call it a day. Go back to one button push simplicity.

"But I don't want to become a barista"

My wife said that too but once she got hooked to the good stuff and i wasnt around to make it for her, she started to want to learn.

At first, no weighing just approximates. Now she gladly does the whole routine weighing input and output because she tasted the difference.

Although she would have been been happy with "super auto" coffee in the past, those days are long gone...