Hello All,

In a recent thread Rich stated:

boar_d_laze wrote: A $1500 machine with a $1200 grinder will make a much better cup of coffee than a $6000 machine with a $500 grinder -- even a $500 grinder as good as the Vario.

Does this comport with people's experiences?

If so, does it make sense to allocate this large a proportion of the budget to the grinder, that is a "keeper" and consider upgrading the machine at some later date?

TIA

John

CoffeeMan9000,

[edited for clarity]

In a one-word answer to your question: Yes.

But still, let me just ramble a bit on that subject for some more depth in looking at the issue...

IMO, that "espresso machine/grinder cost ratio" -- the often-heard "maxim" stating you spend AS MUCH or MORE on your grinder than your espresso machine -- only works up to a certain level, then it changes because there IS a "wall" you hit re: how much to spend on a really good home grinder.

Once you get into the $800-1600 grinder range, that's pretty much IT for home use (meaning the top prosumer/light-use commercial rated grinders). Above that you're getting into full-blown big/heavy/powerful continuous-use commercial grinders -- that some people like to have in their homes (for whatever reasons), true, but sure aren't required to get excellent grinding results as the top-drawer home/prosumer/semi-commercial grinders do (say, a Mazzer Mini for specific example...or a Mahlkonig K30 Vario).

Meaning, you get a $2000 espresso machine and a $800-$1600 grinder (Mazzer Mini/Mahlkonig K30, as per above) -- or a $500 machine and the same $800-$1600 grinder -- you're pretty much SET grinder-wise indefinitely as you're at the top end for home-use grinders, so no "need" to go beyond that $800-$1600 price bracket (need and want are often blurred, however) regardless of how much your machine cost -- a few hundred or a few thousand. For home use, there'd be no "need" to upgrade a $800-$1600 grinder...unless you want to for some other reason, as "better grinding" really isn't going to be THAT much better for most of us here for our home setup. There's no "need" to upgrade those high-end home grinders to get "better" results (as some say, which is mostly subjective anyway). And because they ARE prosumer/semi-commercial grinders, you can expect them to go on grinding (and be trouble-free) for MANY YEARS -- and the burrs in these upscale grinders will not need replacing for YEARS, either -- so no need to get another $800-$1600 grinder because it broke (it's possible, but HIGHLY unlikely). And you're also highly unlikely to wear it out using it a home espresso setting, either, even if you try your best to do so!

However, there NO doubt that you sure can go up HIGHER cost-wise for a home espresso machine...from that $2000 to $3000, $4000 and on up to $8000 or more! But still, your $800-1600 grinder will be just fine. Those more espensive machines are as much (or MORE) objets d'art as they are espresso machines, and don't make (IMO) any hugely-better espresso than the lesser $$$$ but still top-drawer home espresso machines.

In the future for MY upgrading, I can see myself going only as far as a Kees van der Westen Speedster and a Mahlkonig K30 Vario grinder. That'll about do it for me at a $8000/$1600 machine/grinder cost ratio. Or possibly a La Marzocco GS/3 and Mahlkonig K30 -- that'd be a $7000/$1600 ratio.

Presently, my machine/grinder ratio = $2000/$900. The next (and probably final in 2-3 years) ratio will be $8000/1600. Max!

Will the $1600 grinder make a huge improvement (if any) over my current $900 grinder? Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter though, as that will be the machine/grinder pairing in the future (at least as of this date) as I get both machine & grinder at the same time and think of them as a "matched-pair" (which is only MY opinion/choice...other opinions/choices will vary, of course).

So as mentioned earlier, in the LOWER cost machines (even though $2k for an espresso machine is still some serious $$), a grinder can/will have a HIGHER cost in the machine/grinder cost ratio. Certainly so if one gets a $300 machine. Or one in the $600-700 class, like the ubiquitous Rancilio Silvia. An upscale grinder clearly will be more expensive. But when you get into the more expensive espresso machines (which MAY or MAY NOT make any better espresso), the grinder has a lower cost ratio.

I hope all the above makes SOME sense at least...

As also mentioned, I am not including full-blown commercial grinders in this ratio as personally, a top-drawer HOME or SEMI-COMMERCIAL grinder would be fine for ME, so I'm not addressing those huge (but impressive as they are more expensive) beasts OTHER people may want to have at home -- which is fine with me as we get whatever we want and for whatever reasons (and no one needs to justify or defend those reasons).

I'm just saying when you reach a certain price category of grinder for home use, its COST tends to stabilize or becomes LESS in the machine/grinder cost ratio...so it's not a hard & fast rule that you ALWAYS spend MORE on a grinder. Heck, at SOME point, you simply CAN'T spend more on the grinder...even if you WANTED to! If that WERE true -- you spend as much as or more than what your espresso machine cost -- then my $8k Speedster (more for its ART value vs. making "better" espresso) would require AT LEAST an $8K grinder. Not AT ALL! And in MY case, it ain't gonna happen, as it's not AT ALL necessary.

Regardless of what others do for THEIR home espresso stations/setups, in mine a Speedster and Mahlkonig will be pretty much THE SUMMIT of my personal climb up the espresso mountain.

Yes, DO get the best grinder you can afford so it will work well for you in the future (if/when you move up machine-wise), but remember that price you're going to pay for an upscale (and HOME use) grinder, even if high, DOES have a limit and after that's it's a case of diminishing returns for more $$$ paid. Save that $$$ for a "better" (AKA: artsy) espresso machine if you want, as you won't need it for a "better" grinder.

That's some Good News, anyway: "The Wall" in pricing of top-end/upscale home grinders. Amortized over time -- the years you're likely to be using it -- even a $1600 grinder isn't THAT expensive. So GET one!

Good luck in seeking out YOUR personal machine/grinder cost ratio...

-- BR

John,

Bill's explanation was quite good.

The one place where he and I differ significantly is his recommendation of the Mazzer Mini. He likes it, I don't.

There's no right price ratio for machine/grinder.

The way it works is that after a certain level of machine competence -- which begins at around $1300 or so -- every dollar intelligently invested in the grinder will pay greater dividend in the cup, than a dollar invested in the machine. Of course, there are exceptions.

When it comes to quality in the cup, grinders tend to hunt in packs grouped by burr size and geometry. Of course, there are exceptions.

In order to make sense of a complicated situation, I rate grinders according to the following classes:

• Inadequate;
  Adequate;
  Good; Excellent; and
  Outstanding

As they perform the following "in the cup" criteria:

• Spectrum;
  Separation;
  Clarity; and
  Mouthfeel;

As they perform the following "grind quality" criteria:

• Fluffiness;
  Freedom from static;
  Absence of clumping;

And as they perform the following "use" categories:

• Ease of grind setting;
  Ease of dosing;
  Noise;
  Cleanliness;
  Ease of maintenance;
  Overall ease of use;
  Size; and
  Spouse Approval Factor.

At the top end of grinder performance are the "big flats," and "big conics." FWIW, I don't believe there's one "best grinder" for everyone. The decision making process usually involves numerous tradeoffs.

Two great answers so far.

I mostly agree with the first, but once again I'm not a fan of the Mini.
BDL mention of tradeoff certainly applies, it's very true: Everything is a trade off.

Personally like "sharp tools" even though it can mean more maintenance or skill required to use them. Every time I cheap out, I often end up getting the better stuff in the end anyways. As for how high of end... While price doesn't necessarily mean quality, until I've spend $1500-2000 on a grinder, that's were my money would go. Even if I was using a Silvia+PID or CC1. The best espresso machine on the world can't fix a average grind. Of which, the biggest determining factor of grind quality is alignment.

My favorite grinder to date is my calibrated M3 which is right in that range (I bought mine used). I'm continuing to test further, but more times I prefer it to my EK43. Pre-alignment I would of said the EK. Perhaps the EK could be better aligned... but I digress. Point being is quality matters.

If there was a higher quality grinder at the $3000-5000 range I would look at it. Grind matters, a lot. I think there's room in the market for a truly high end grinder. Like the EK, but even higher quality maybe, and made for home, so smaller form factor. Something on the level of the Speedster or Slayer. Terranova's custom work is the best I've seen yet. I would love to try one.

boar_d_laze,

Yes, I have a Mazzer Mini, but didn't say I LIKED it (it's doing well enough so I'm not DIS-satisfied), nor was I recommending it to the OP...was just using it as a specific example as it's what I have now. You see, I bought it from Prima Coffee and once you USE a grinder, it's YOURS to keep. Forever. Whether you like it or not. A used grinder is on Prima Coffee's "Non-returnable Items" list, as per their sorry Return Policy on big-ticket items such as grinders and espresso machines (so BEWARE -- I know *I* won't shot there again).

That said, the Mazzer Mini is a very nice grinder to be "stuck with" regardless -- especially now that it has 64mm burrs, and if I want, I can put Super Jolly burrs on it (but won't). And as you know, since I'm Special Needs (re: espresso) I could do a whole lot worse than a Mazzer Mini! And again, I'm talking about high-end HOME grinders, not commercial/coffee-shop grinders.

Besides, I couldn't get the Mahlkonig NOW...what would I upgrade to when I got my Speedster? So I (unintentionally) and Prima Coffee (intentionally) left me some headroom for the future, if you will.

...at least that's how *I* am rationalizing it...

But really, I will admit that I do like my Mini more than I don't...and for me it's a good pairing with my "cheap" Vibiemme.

-- BR

BillRedding wrote:You see, I bought it from Prima Coffee and once you USE a grinder, it's YOURS to keep. Forever. Whether you like it or not. A used grinder is on Prima Coffee's "Non-returnable Items" list, as per their sorry Return Policy on big-ticket items such as grinders and espresso machines (so BEWARE -- I know *I* won't shot there again).

Just curious, what would you expect them to do with the used grinder once you sent it back? Or said another way, would you have been happy receiving a grinder with just a few pounds through it or so? I guess one option would be a reasonable restocking fee, and offer a discount to those who want to buy a returned model.

You can always sell your Mini and recover some of the cost to upgrade.

To the OP, there's been quite a few threads on the same subject, especially recently. I'll quote myself with my opinion:

EspressoForge wrote:As a person who has upgraded both my grinder and machine many times...I would just suggest that you really look at what machine and grinder you really want, upgrading little by little gets you some nice things, and if you do it all used you probably will be out only a little cash + shipping. But ultimately it's always better to have an idea of the end in mind. Maybe you'll be able to wait, maybe you'll have to have a middle ground upgrade to hold you over.

Assume that upgrading from your current grinder to the Vario range will make shots much better tasting, then assume if you upgrade to a Titan class (from the Vario) that you'll get nearly the same amount of improvement in flavor. If it's conical, you can add rarely having to adjust grind. I loved and was blown away by all my grinder upgrades.

For the machine, upgrading to entry level DB or mid-level HX will get you much better consistency for temp related problems and likely some nice ergonomic or other features (hot water tap, less fiddly routines needed) that you'll grow to appreciate. Going higher will get you more things like that, or refine them...but in my experience the flavor won't necessarily upgrade like it does for the grinder.

So in simplest terms for me, grinder = flavor improvements, machine = ergonomic improvements. Upgrade whichever bothers you most first.

EspressoForge wrote:To the OP, there's been quite a few threads on the same subject, especially recently.

Not to mention the sticky How to choose an espresso machine and grinder at the "right" price and video on the same subject. Specifically for the grinder vs. espresso machine pricepoints, my TL;DR advice is that the "knee" of the price curve begins around $500 for a grinder and $1500 for an espresso machine. You reach the sharp end of the cost/benefit analysis at around double those pricepoints.

"Just curious, what would you expect them to do with the used grinder once you sent it back?" -- EspressoForge


I would expect Prima Coffee to do the same as the OTHER online (but major-player) espresso stores/dealers do: A 30-day return policy subject to some % of Restocking Fee. No special reason required for returning it, even if it wasn't defective (which is highly unlikely for an upscale/quality big-ticket grinder or espresso machine).

Upon receiving a customer-returned used grinder (or espresso machine), Prima Coffee could then (1) charge a reasonable Restocking Fee (MANY stores do that nowadays, not just espresso-related stores) and (2) resell it as a Return, Refurbished, Buyer's Remorse (not applicable in my case though) or whatever they want to call it (except Open-Box, as I DID use it) -- like the OTHER dealers do -- especially if the company makes it a point (as Prima Coffee does) to express they want their customers to be satisfied with their purchases. Getting stuck for a small restocking fee sure beats getting stuck for the whole $$$ or $$$$ cost of a grinder/espresso machine, yes?

And no, there wouldn't be a "few pounds of coffee" through it, as it didn't take THAT long for some issues to show up.

As for receiving a "new" grinder with some coffee grinds in it, since most upscale grinders are tested at the factory -- by grinding some coffee beans (!) -- your "new" grinder comes to you "used" anyway. So a customer using it for a short while longer makes it a "used-used" grinder, if you will. So it's "used" regardless. We're just talking about HOW LONG it's been used, yes? But being used, it wouldn't be sold as "new" so why wouldn't someone NOT want to buy a higher-end item at a reduced "used" price, even if it DID have "a few pounds of coffee" run through it? And even if "a few pounds of coffee" WERE put through it, the grinder isn't even broken-in at that point, is it -- there are still burrs on the burrs! And yes, I'd love to get a "used" grinder at a "used grinder" discount...please let me know where I can get such a "gently used" (meaning BARELY, like my Mazzer would have been IF sent back to Prima Coffee) Mahlkonig K-30 Vario.

But I've already posted on Prima Coffee here earlier (my very 1st post as a new member) when another HB Forum member was looking at them for a grinder purchase, as I wanted to give him a heads-up to avoid being a "recipient" of Prima Coffee's "We care about our customers and want them to be satisfied with their purchases, so we offer a No-Hassle return" policy. Unfortunately, the "We care" does not extend to grinders or machines.

But rather than re-hash all that here (and THIS post is long enough as it is), let me post the link to that thread:

"Cafe Quality" Home Espresso Machine

In the future, I will only patronize a dealer/store that has a better Return Policy just in case I need to do that.

Please note that in all the years I have been buying online (WAY before it became mainstream even) and the hundreds of online vendors I have patronized, I HARDLY EVER returned something (for ANY reason)...but it's nice to know you CAN if need be. Especially when you spend a most of a $1K bill on some item.

Not so with Prima Coffee, and their sometimes better pricing on some items in NO way makes up for that at all.

Caveat emptor...

-- BR

P.S. No, I will keep the Mazzer Mini...as mentioned in an earlier post, I like it more than not. Besides, also as mentioned, it makes a good pairing with my Vibiemme. As for selling things, I usually don't (for several reasons) -- when the time comes to part with them, I just give (gift) them away -- of course, to a good home only!

-- BR

HB wrote: EspressoForge wrote:To the OP, there's been quite a few threads on the same subject, especially recently.


Not to mention the sticky How to choose an espresso machine and grinder at the "right" price and video on the same subject. Specifically for the grinder vs. espresso machine pricepoints, my TL;DR advice is that the "knee" of the price curve begins around $500 for a grinder and $1500 for an espresso machine. You reach the sharp end of the cost/benefit analysis at around double those pricepoints.

The sticky references the large changes in product quality and availability in the prior 2 to 3 years. The sticky is now over 4 years old, so though the general thesis might still be relevant, presumably with new products, discontinued products, shifts in currency exchange rates and other factors, the specific advice is somewhat diminished in its usefulness.

You're right.

Plus, there's no best grinder or machine for everyone. Usually there are one, two or occasionally three best choices for a particular buyer's unique priorities. A FAQ may be a starting point, but cannot substitute for lots of questions addressed to people who can and will answer them in ways which make sense to the buyer. Furthermore, priorities -- like budgets -- evolve with sophistication.

Rich