Bezzera Aria MN (rotary pump) or Expobar Brewtus IV Lever Dual Boiler (Volumetric Pump)

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
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pasgal
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#1: Post by pasgal »

Hi everyone, I'm a new member. For many years I used a Nuova Simonelli Premiers (2 groups) from the 80s but it has now left me.
I have a desire to have an e61 group + a heat exchanger (I always want new water in my cup, not boiler water) + a rotary pump.

Can you help me with this choice, the budget is the value of the machines listed in the title, i.e. approximately €1600.

Many, many thanks to everyone.

Sorry for my bad english, I used google translate

Ciao a tutti, sono un nuovo iscritto. Per moltissimi anni ho utilizzato una Nuova Simonelli Premiers (2 gruppi) degli anni '80 ma ormai mi ha lasciato. Ho il desiderio di avere un gruppo e61 + uno scambiatore di calore (voglio sempre acqua nuova nella mia tazza, non acqua della caldaia) + una pompa a rotazione.

Mi aiutate in questa scelta, il budget è il valore delle macchine elencate nel titolo, ossia 1600 € circa.

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another_jim
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#2: Post by another_jim »

The Brewtus IV comes in a rotary pump or vibe pump model. Volumetric is the same as rotary as far as I know.

The Brewtus is a budget Spanish machine that by now, after so many models, is quite reliable and well built. The Bezzera machines have a good reputation, but we do not have a lot of people posting about their dual boiler models.
Jim Schulman

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pasgal (original poster)
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#3: Post by pasgal (original poster) »

Thank you. Reading the forum I am learning that the rotation pump should not be a barrier for me, in fact for home use the vibration pump is also fine, many users write like this in their experiences.

Therefore, the e61 group and the heat exchanger remain important for me when choosing. At this point could I have a Lelit Mara X PL62X as an option? What do you think about it?

Sorry for my bad english.

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another_jim
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#4: Post by another_jim »

A dual boiler and heat exhanger are different styles of machine.

In the heat exchange machine, there is only one boiler vessel. The water going to the group passes therough a pipe inside the steam boiler, and gets heated as it moves through. This creates a problem since the water in the heat exchange overheats when it is idle. The Mara X cures this problem by varying he boiler temeprature. In most HX machines, you nnedd to give it a cooling flush after it has stood idle.

In dual boiler machines, the water for the brew group is in a separate vessel from the water for steam. This means there s no tendency for the water to overheat. In a well designed dual boiler, you can simply walk up and make your shot.

HB contains an FAQ section that has all the information you are seeking. Please tell us how good or bad it is after trying to navigate it translated into Italian.
Jim Schulman

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pasgal (original poster)
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#5: Post by pasgal (original poster) replying to another_jim »

Many thanks, the double boiler is supposedly of such size that in one day the water becomes stale, old, like in an iron for siting clothes. I love a single boiler because the exchanger is always small in size, max 200cl. Am I right?

For Lelit Mara, if before making a coffee, I run 300 ml of water from the group, I am almost certain that it will then enter my cup, only new water coming from the tank, with a double boiler I would not get this, am I wrong or say Well?

Taking a long empty shot, I just have to wait 2 minutes before taking the real shot, or the temperature has risen too much and needs to go down (always with Mara).

I will read the section you posted to me, in the meantime I am reading the long topic dedicated to Lelit Mara on this nice forum.

___ITA____
Molte grazie, la doppia caldaia si presume si di dimensioni tali che in una giornata l'acqua diventa stantia, vecchia, come in un ferro per sitare i vestiti. Amo caldaia unica perchè lo scambiatore è sempre di dimensioni piccole, max 200cl. Dico bene?

Per Lelit Mara, se prima di fare un caffeè, faccio scorrere 300 ml di acqua dal gruppo, sono quasi certo, poi, che entrerà nella mia tazza, solo acqua nuova proveniente dal serbatoio, con una doppia caldaia non otterrei questo, sbaglio oppure dico bene?

Facendo un tiro lungo a vuoto, mi basta attendere 2 minuti prima di fare il tiro vero, oppure la temperatura è salita troppo e deve scendere (sempre con Mara).

Leggerò la sezione che mi ha postato, intanto sto leggendo il lungo topic dedicato a Lelit Mara presente su questo bel forum.

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Jeff
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#6: Post by Jeff »

I don't know of the water being "stale" in the boiler being a concern. After all, it has been running through pipes for who knows how long before it came out of your tap.

The Mara X is the only HX I'd consider buying new today. It has a special way of controlling brew temperature that no other generally available machine has. Conventional HX machines in the home require a flush routine before most every shot. I think there are easier to use machines in the price range that HX machines used to dominate.

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pasgal (original poster)
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#7: Post by pasgal (original poster) »

The wash runtime would it be to let out a cup of water before making coffee?
I have always done this with the Nuova Simonelli, it's like a ritual that I like, to let the water out of the circuit and let the new one in.

The double boiler does not have a small exchanger where there is always almost fresh water, I don't want to drink water that is in contact with a resistance, to have fresh water I would have to empty it every coffee. It's a fixation of mine, I know.
I read that Lelit Mara has overheating problems, if I rinse, because its modified e61 increases the temperature a lot, with Profitec Pro 400 I don't have some functions of the Mara, but it loses heat instead of becoming very hot if I leave it on for 3 hours ? I didn't understand this problem with the Mara that you don't have to flush otherwise it gets hot, did I read that wrong?

The wash runtime would it be to let out a cup of water before making coffee? I have always done this with the Nuova Simonelli, it's like a ritual that I like, to let the water out of the circuit and let the new one in.

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mrgnomer
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#8: Post by mrgnomer »

I favour heat exchanger (HX) machines for fresh water flow as well. The HX thermosyphon tendency to overheat needing cooling flushes and the brew temperature control challenge is not for everyone, though.

I have a Bezzera Strega, a vibratory pump spring lever HX. I used to use a Quickmill Vetrano rotary pump HX. Flushing and temperature surfing is what I got used to and like doing now. I don't know how accurate it is but the extractions are good.

Bezzera makes good HX machines. When I was looking at an upgrade to my Vetrano I stumbled on lever machines and chose the Strega for its price and heat exchanger design. After over a year now I am still impressed by the extraction quality.
Kirk
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professionals do it for the pay, amateurs do it for the love

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Jeff
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#9: Post by Jeff »

If you're pulling coffee that benefits from controlled temperature, then that flush will need to be controlled and will be different in length each time, depending on the current group and HX temperature. This is why people use group head thermometers like the EricS. This also means you won't be able to use a flow kit, as you can pick between a thermometer or a manometer to mount without drilling a tapping another hole in the group.

All traditional HX machines overheat if idle. This is how they work. A PID alone doesn't "fix" this or manage group or brew temperature. The couple that have strangled thermosiphons to claim "no flush" first shots have significant problems with the second and later shots. The Mara X is the only one i know of that manages the brew temperate effectively.

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pasgal (original poster)
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#10: Post by pasgal (original poster) »

Jeff wrote:If you're pulling coffee that benefits from controlled temperature, then that flush will need to be controlled and will be different in length each time, depending on the current group and HX temperature. This is why people use group head thermometers like the EricS. This also means you won't be able to use a flow kit, as you can pick between a thermometer or a manometer to mount without drilling a tapping another hole in the group.

All traditional HX machines overheat if idle. This is how they work. A PID alone doesn't "fix" this or manage group or brew temperature. The couple that have strangled thermosiphons to claim "no flush" first shots have significant problems with the second and later shots. The Mara X is the only one i know of that manages the brew temperate effectively.
mrgnomer wrote:I favour heat exchanger (HX) machines for fresh water flow as well. The HX thermosyphon tendency to overheat needing cooling flushes and the brew temperature control challenge is not for everyone, though.

I have a Bezzera Strega, a vibratory pump spring lever HX. I used to use a Quickmill Vetrano rotary pump HX. Flushing and temperature surfing is what I got used to and like doing now. I don't know how accurate it is but the extractions are good.

Bezzera makes good HX machines. When I was looking at an upgrade to my Vetrano I stumbled on lever machines and chose the Strega for its price and heat exchanger design. After over a year now I am still impressed by the extraction quality.
Thanks, I'm reading a lot about MaraX. I don't want a boiler bigger than a heat exchanger, the idea of water stored for 24 hours and heated several times isn't for me, so thanks to this forum I'm understanding that for now Lelit's Mara X is in first place, but I keep reading what you say on the forum.