Best high-end espresso machine money can buy (For home or small café) - Page 7

#61: Post by **JohnB.** » May 23rd, 2023, 7:49 am

salvia wrote:The Progressive Pre-Infusion Cylinder System (PPIC for short) is explained briefly in this article from Sprudge.

That article describes the Idro-Matic which is an adjustable PPIC although it's odd that they never mention the name. I was referring to the PPIC (now DSPIC) mounted in the front cover.
The Infusion section on this page of their site ( https://keesvanderwesten.com/speedster/construction/) has a good description of what the PPIC is and how it works.

#62: Post by **ron231** » May 28th, 2023, 10:26 pm

If look and feel is not that important to you, Decent wins in raw espresso quality. I don't think anything can make better coffee.

Unfortunately, in most areas aside from espresso quality, decent loses to other machines at similar or even lower prices.

#63: Post by **kidloco** » May 29th, 2023, 2:05 am

I had equally good or better shots with a range of machines, some of them were more than

40 years old. Decent is about convenience and experimenting, the quality of shots is on par with many machines...

#64: Post by **N6GQ** » May 29th, 2023, 1:05 pm

BaristaBoy E61 wrote:Yes, my avatar is a Ham Radio morse code 'Iambic Keyer' or 'Paddle' that is used with an electronic morse code generating device that puts out perfectly spaced dits & dahs at a specifically adjusted 'words per minute' rate . You can think of it as a semi-automatic espresso machine with a rotary pump where as the picture you posted is of a beautiful 'Brass Pounder' that you can think of as a totally manual espresso machine like an Olympia Cremina lever machine that with pure muscle control the operator creates the Morse Music.

Thomas Alva Edison, very early in his career, was applying for a job as a railroad telegrapher. Sitting in the waiting room with other applicants, waiting to be called into an interview, between the sounds of telegraph message traffic was also a Morse Code message pounded out in 'Brass', "If you copy this message, my office door is open, just come on right in." As Thomas Edison was the only applicant copying the code in his head, he was the only one to get up out of his chair and walked right in. Needless to say, he was hired on the spot.

"... And that's the rest of the story!"

The early bird gets the worm.

... And the second mouse gets the cheese!

Also a CW fan! de N6GQ (aka VY2ZO, TO5Z, YN2AA, 9H3ZZ, etc, etc)

#65: Post by **N6GQ** » May 29th, 2023, 1:11 pm

ron231 wrote:If look and feel is not that important to you, Decent wins in raw espresso quality. I don't think anything can make better coffee.

Unfortunately, in most areas aside from espresso quality, decent loses to other machines at similar or even lower prices.

I feel like I need to disagree with you, given that espresso quality is subjective. My experience with (3) THREE DE machines did not prove that. In fact, for my tastes (again, subjective), I found the opposite. I really wanted the DE to be great, and I applaud DE for what they've done, but to say its the winner in espresso quality I think is a vast overstatement. My Londinium, IMHO, makes much, much better espresso than the DE ever did or could. The inherent issues with how the DE heats and pumps water will always leave it at a disadvantage when compared to something like a lever, with a lot of hot water sitting in reserve.

Why 3 DEs you ask? Because they kept having issues. And this goes back to what one was saying about quality. Yes, its possible someone can buy a DE and never have an issue. On the other end of the spectrum is me, who it seemed was regularly getting either replacement machines or parts to fix things that failed.

I sold the last one and went back to enjoying very high quality espresso on a daily basis with my Londinium. Is it the best? No, but it makes me quite happy.

May 30th, 2023, 4:53 am

But you can only make one type of shot, a londinium shot, which may be the bet shot for some beans and some grinders but not all. Blooming on a decent is great for super light roasts, can't do that on a londinium. RAO allonge? nope. "espresso in the 80s" shots? Extractamundo? Adaptive shots? Temp decline shots? Nope. There is just so much more you can do with a decent that I would be amazed if with most beans you could not find a profile on the decent that you didn't like better than the londinium. Now if you were to tell me that with the same bean and the same grinder that a shot pulled on a londinium would taste better than londinium profile on a decent, that would make sense.

#67: Post by **N6GQ** » May 30th, 2023, 8:20 am

ron231 wrote: But you can only make one type of shot, a londinium shot, which may be the bet shot for some beans and some grinders but not all. Blooming on a decent is great for super light roasts, can't do that on a londinium. RAO allonge? nope. "espresso in the 80s" shots? Extractamundo? Adaptive shots? Temp decline shots? Nope. There is just so much more you can do with a decent that I would be amazed if with most beans you could not find a profile on the decent that you didn't like better than the londinium. Now if you were to tell me that with the same bean and the same grinder that a shot pulled on a londinium would taste better than londinium profile on a decent, that would make sense.

I would tell you exactly that - that using the same beans and grinder that a DE "Londinium" shot was nothing resembling a shot from my LR. The flavor separation is good, but the texture is not. There was no way the DE could reproduce the LR mouthfeel/texture. I'll agree, there are some profiles I cannot reproduce on my LR that you can on your DE. That's ok with me. Having been there and done that I found I don't desire that. I prefer consistency and quality, and while the DE would get consistent shots on a given profile, it couldn't reproduce the texture, and in my case, didn't stay working in a consistent way.

All the above is well discussed around the Interwebz and the DE diaspora. I'm not saying anything that many others have said.

#68: Post by **Maak** » July 4th, 2023, 7:32 am

Maybe I missed it but has anyone suggested the LM Leva X single group. Maybe it's a pretty great machine. I've never tried one yet.

#69: Post by **SteveH** » July 4th, 2023, 11:53 am

I just found this thread and figured I'd offer my $0.02. In the past 10 years I've had a GS3 AV, Slayer, Decent, Londinium, another Decent, and now a Speedster (new version).

First to address the Decent as it is most unlike the rest. It is unique and has some incredible strengths, but even after years of using it an two different versions I cannot get it to make coffee as good as any of the others. As stated above, just because the software says it is technically mimicking another machine does not mean it actually achieves it. Each machine seems to have some sort of unquantifiable magic that goes beyond its specs and contributes to unique attributes -- perhaps I'm not technical enough to understand or perhaps no one knows exactly what's going on in these complex systems. The Decent is fun to tinker with, small, well priced (although less so now), heats up quickly, etc. It can make lots of different kinds of shots, but none are as good as the best machines -- jack of all trades, master of none. Also if you like milk drinks, the steam performance is dramatically worse than the rest. And I find that when I use it often, I miss the tactile feedback of the others. It takes some of the pleasure out in the long run. But I still do own one and I recommend it to friends who are tight on space. It's best for that scenario or as a second machine IMHO.

GS3 is probably the best choice for someone who wants a bulletproof, great machine from a top company that doesn't need to be plumbed in. Londinium is a pleasure to use and makes outstanding coffee. For someone price conscious and who has the counter and overhead space for the lever, it would be my recommendation (I'm sure other levers are great too, but LR is what I had).

Now Slayer vs Speedster: I had an earlier Slayer and never had issues, although I know a lot of people have. The build quality for sure was nothing like this Speedster, which is just obviously tip top in every dimension. I find the overall Speedster performance to be better as well. With the PPIC, you'll be hard pressed to make a bad shot. Unless you greatly prefer the looks of the Slayer or you don't have space for the external pump, I'd go Speedster. But you can't go wrong.

Again I'm sure there are other great machines, but this is my personal experience

July 4th, 2023, 8:36 pm

Thx for the sharing. After years of E61 HX and lever, lever all the way.

I used to see the machine as the weak link. Everything up to the machine needed to be at it's best; grind, dose, prep...or the extraction is likely to fail.

With my lever everything before it is now the weaker link. I've been pulling shots on the lever with grinds that shouldn't be working. Ball park dialed in subclass conical burr hand grinder. A reasonable pre infusion and full pressure start pulls unexpectedly good shots. Better than anything I got with a pump machine.

I've been intrigued by the Decent for a while. It's hard not consider whether you're missing out on something looking at the given specs. Obsessive perfectionism makes me question what I've got. But as I have a bonding moment with my hybrid lever because of a home roast that I stalled, chokes my electric grinder, makes me use my wanting hand grinder and pulls a good shot anyway with the I don't know uneven this grind is but it looks like a lot, I stop wondering about whether anything else could do better.