You're going to have a tough time getting in under a grand. If you're good with DIY, a gaggia classic with PID, dimmer mod, and pressure gauge will get you most of the way there for being able to well extract light roasts.

A used breville dual boiler is also a good option.

lancealot wrote:If you are smart, you'll run away!!!

Also - Buy once, cry once.

The grinder is absolutely the most important piece of hardware. I know this because I started with a $500 flat burrs grinder. Big failure. Then went to a $1000 flat burrs grinder which lasted only a few weeks because I wasn't able to pull the flavors I knew the beans had. I then spent $4K on the next grinder which has been a joy to use. I finally got the right flavor balance and mouth feel I was looking for and it was a night and day difference or worlds apart from the other grinders.

My advice: either run away or go big...

Make sure to spend some time perusing the various BDB oriented threads here. There are several, varying from experiences to maintenance to modofications. There a re a couple threads from people wo have had issues with their BDB. Enough to prove that there is a possibility of getting a lemon, as there is with any mechanical device. You should read thos threads too so you have a full grasp of what might happen.
One of the biggest complaints, mine included is the fact that there are some propietary parts that Breville refuses to sell to their customers. In the end, I feel that Brevilles service/support has done right by me.

The most important thing I can tell you is to use non scaling water(rpavlis recipe)

and NEVER RUN THE DESCALE PROGRAM!!!!!

beanEFIL wrote:BDB.... or the BDB... or was it the BDB......... Ok y'all I hear ya! hahahahahaha

I must admit... I wasn't expecting to literally hear the SAME advice... and the SAME machine.....
There are soooo many machines! hahahaha
That said... if the Breville Dual Boiler... has so many of you... recommending it...
I'll get it!
It's only $1600... which seems inexpensive when the other one in the running is one of the Decents...

BDB 920... Niche Zero...
These are my finalists....

Last chance for anyone to say STOP DON'T DO IT WOMAN! hahahaha

Only thing I can think of... that maybe you all don't factor in... is the "rookie" card...
While most of you have had a lot of experience... I have not...
That said...IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT EITHER (BDB, Niche zero) A BEGINNER would consider a "con"??
Would you consider this machine "easy to use/maintain/clean"?? (I know that's relative but)
Just try and remember when you had your first machine... was there anything you struggled with... you think I might... with these machines in particular??

Wow. It just hit me. I'm finally doing this.

To everyone that replied to my post... it only being my 2nd... THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH!!!!
I can't wait to report back (and blame all of YOU if ANYthing goes wrong.... hahahahaha Kidding!!!;).

cafeIKE wrote: I admit to being an espresso conservative and am not interested in a machine I need my phone to operate. Were I 30 years younger I'd be all over a Decent or the new Vibiemme Domobar Super Electronic or Elektra Verve or +++$$$. If I wanted to futz with every coffee type and parameter, I might look askance at e61s.

10+ years in the tech industry here and I wouldn't touch a Decent (yet) so I don't think it's age.
(I don't doubt you can find the standard parts that they use, but I don't want a bloody android tablet controlling my espresso machine, last thing I need is potential for sh!t code messing with my morning peace)
Maybe I'm the odd one out, I also pair my streaming service with vinyl and buy rebuildable appliances (machines?) where possible.


That said, it took me near 7 years to PID my e61 machine, and I tinker with everything else in the house. I'm probably not their target market.

It's funny you mention the importance of the grinder...
Since posting originally... and after each reply...I've read... researched... read more...
I have concluded... I NEED FLAT BURRS... as BIG as I can AFFORD...

So... I've got a list going... and several "obvious" winners... OVER my budget...
This is now what I'm referring to as my "stage 2" list.... "stage 1" is where I need help...

Stage 1: (current status) Upgrade from current gear. Learn it. Learn it. Use it. Use it. Repeat.
Stage 2: Upgrade from Stage 1 gear. Learn it. Learn it. Use it. use it. Repeat. Apply skills and techniques from Stage 1.

BDB... no longer my stage 1 finalist. Ideally... I'd have something I don't need to tinker w/first... It's my understanding I won't have the flow control I could get with another machine... without having to fiddle.... Also... while I"m sure it's great... something in my gut is telling me to pass...
Just can't figure out a good stage 1 machine... lots of good options for when I might feel "confident"... but right now... I don't! hahaha
I need a "learning" machine... BUT I DON'T WANT TO TOTALLY SACRIFICE QUALITY. So good... doesn't have to be great... but good....

For the grinder... all I can really find for stage 1 are the ECM V-Titan 64 and Cedar E375... the latter being better for my light roasts...
Lots of great options for stage 2 ($$$$$) but can't find much under $3K for now.... a good stage 1 grinder budget...
So... if anyone has any recommendations... on FLAT... I'm all ears....

Lastly... IF EVERYONE THINKS MY PLAN STINKS (meant that to rhyme because... why not!!).. and I should just skip to Stage 2... SPEND MORE AND GET HIGHER QUALITY GEAR out of the gate... I'm down... I just want to be worthy... and know how to use it.. take care of it... etc (I'm working under the assumption it will take me a year or so to get comfortable with all the "new" daily regimens and routines... sound about right???)

I hear ya btw... on the water... I've taken notes thanks to all the useful threads here detailing numerous recipes thoughts ideas etc.... I'll do my best...
I'll take all the advice I can get on that though... as it's completely new to me!

Yes, I want to have as much control over the flow as I can. Overall... I wish to maximize potential for success... and minimize (impactful on desirable end-results) variables out of my control (such as aforementioned).
Running my various tests and experiments... I'll want the best foundation possible I can stand on. Things get wobbly as such variables increase.

And wow. I'm somewhat speechless... somewhat hahahaha
Indeeeeedy I lack your experience with high quality gear... however your tone/assumptions are an "ouch"; a real bummer. make me sad. Curious too... but that's just the philosopher in me! It's cracking me up in a way... just b/c I'm soooo far from what I'm gathering you're (mis)perceiving me as! (buy it to say I have it) hahahahaha

Yes, Rich suggested the DF64 as well... I am including it with my research. Thank you for that as well as all of your feedback/suggestions. You have both been very insightful. I would not have gotten as far as quick without all of the help I have and am receiving here (and the free judgements hahahahaha;)

I'll continue my research/hunt and feel confident that my final purchasing decisions will bring me joy. After all, that's why I do this!

Sending you... and your (surely cute & snuggable) poodles... a big ol' 100,000mm 'burr-hug' o' JOY & GOOD VIBAGE:)))))!!!

beanEFIL wrote:I need a "learning" machine... BUT I DON'T WANT TO TOTALLY SACRIFICE QUALITY. So good... doesn't have to be great... but good....

The problem with the whole "Learning Machine" thing is most people(maybe not you) really mean "cheap" when they say this. Unfortunately, in the espresso world cheap means junk for the most part. You wind up fighting the machine to get medicore, at best shots. It is frustrating and ends the hobby for a lot of people. It sounds like you are past that point, but I just wanted to point it out.

After your last statements, I'd recommend a DE1, a Niche Zero and a DF64 with upgraded burrs. With this lineup, you will have all the tools to go as far as possible with flow control and light roast SOs. You'll also be able to sell them at a minimal loss if you decide to go another way or quit the hobby completely.

It would also be a good idea to get some advice/help/coaching from someone who has wrangled the light roasts and knows what they are talking about when it comes to the differences between the plethora of burrs and beans. I am not that person.

I concur. "Fighting the machine" is indeed frustrating... well put my friend well put!!!

It's the obsessive, compulsive nature inside of me... coupled with the "I love the challenge" part of my brain... the same one that led me to my Philosophy studies... that MADE THAT A DRAW not put me off! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

However, the FUN of the tests.... the experiments... the "hunt"... for end-results... a wise game....
A very different sort of game presented... a DUMB GAME FOR DUMB PEOPLE! hahaha
ME! hahaha
In other words... I was ignorantly unaware... until recently... that my machine was "predisposed to channeling"... virtually making FUTILE my efforts!

Once I learned this... of course I could not get online fast enough... searching for new gear!!!!!!!
I had been waiting to upgrade... for the same reason(s) I should have upgraded... yrs ago!
I thought I needed improving... when... I wasn't even working with parameters that COULD be achieved.
Talk about multiple "ah ha" moments these past couple of weeks... everything became clear...
At least I am choosing to see the pros here not the cons... in that I'M READY TO GO BABY!
I was working on my puck skills... with a "doomed" Porta and a pressure problem "voiding" out my potential extraction scenarios! hahahaha

I have a clue now.
Better late than never:)

I also agree with your other thought... the "battle of the grinders"!! I was thinking the same thing!!!!!!
See... it's one thing to have shared experiences... but... again with being stubborn (hahaha)... I like to see for myself!

I really REALLY appreciate your comments... these and the rest...
I've tried to NOT like the Decent... being stubborn again... and wouldn't ya know... I'm being pulled in... arg! hahaha
I can't argue with performance... and results... and it seems to be making quite the name for itself...
I'm now thinking... you're onto something... this could be a good "learning machine" after all... for I don't necessarily "need" my body parts to manually execute the commands... the "skill set" of determining the parameters... can STILL keep my ego in tact! hahahaha
Hmmmm a lot to stew... and chew......

Thanks again poodlepops (I say this fondly... but if you hate it lmk! hahaha I'm a nick name gal)

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