Battle of the espresso machines - Page 4
-
- Posts: 153
- Joined: 3 years ago
I would be careful placing too much emphasis on the Whole Latte Love review of Bianca v Profitec 700. Months ago, when I was considering upgrading, I watched the same review and took the Bianca off my shortlist as a result. However, if my memory serves me right, Whole Latte Love did disclose in the review that they don't actually sell the Bianca. This got me rethinking the Bianca. While I have absolutely no reason to believe that it is anything other than an honest review, I couldn't help thinking that there is a chance that there would be an unintended bias. Since they don't sell it, they're not getting any feedback from happy Bianca owners, or even unhappy ones. It's difficult to give a truly impartial review when you're trying to sell one of the products, but not the other.
Fast forward to a month or so ago and I ended up pulling the trigger on the Bianca. Like you, I had doubts about whether I needed a dual boiler, so had considered the Mara X initially. Knowing myself, I felt that had I got the Mara X, it wouldn't take me long before I was lusting after the Bianca. As of now, the Bianca is my end game. I'm not young, so don't see myself needing any new toy in the future. As for the aesthetics, I love the look of it in my kitchen. Like you, I also had to deal with limited counter space and cabinet height restrictions. The ability to side mount the reservoir on either side, or back mount it, is a fantastic advantage. However, I initially side mounted it, but felt it really ruined the look and balance of the machine. I therefore found a way to rearrange my counter spaces and back mount it. It looks so much better now back mounted.
Fast forward to a month or so ago and I ended up pulling the trigger on the Bianca. Like you, I had doubts about whether I needed a dual boiler, so had considered the Mara X initially. Knowing myself, I felt that had I got the Mara X, it wouldn't take me long before I was lusting after the Bianca. As of now, the Bianca is my end game. I'm not young, so don't see myself needing any new toy in the future. As for the aesthetics, I love the look of it in my kitchen. Like you, I also had to deal with limited counter space and cabinet height restrictions. The ability to side mount the reservoir on either side, or back mount it, is a fantastic advantage. However, I initially side mounted it, but felt it really ruined the look and balance of the machine. I therefore found a way to rearrange my counter spaces and back mount it. It looks so much better now back mounted.
-
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 7 years ago
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your feedback on the actual purchase. IMO the Bianca is the best value out there in the class. Wood appointments, bottomless portafilter and flow control. My wife has vehmently protested about the wood and so I have to scratch that one. However, in the last few days the Biance V3's have hit and the prices for the V3 is now in excess of $3k! I agree with you about side mounting ruining the aesthetic. My counter would not be able to handle a back mounted reservoir anyway.
So right now it is a toss-up between the QM67 and the Profitec 600... Though circumstances might push me to the Elizabeth, which is so pedestrian looking in comparison. I've elected to hold off for a bit on the purchase as I just replaced the pump on the Gaggia Classic last week so I can sell it, but want to try to work through my technique issues now. I'm watching lots of vids and reading and learning a lot of what I didn't know in spite of doing espresso for years. I was definitely brewing at too high a temperature.
Again, thanks for your feedback.
So right now it is a toss-up between the QM67 and the Profitec 600... Though circumstances might push me to the Elizabeth, which is so pedestrian looking in comparison. I've elected to hold off for a bit on the purchase as I just replaced the pump on the Gaggia Classic last week so I can sell it, but want to try to work through my technique issues now. I'm watching lots of vids and reading and learning a lot of what I didn't know in spite of doing espresso for years. I was definitely brewing at too high a temperature.
Again, thanks for your feedback.
-
- Posts: 351
- Joined: 2 years ago
@Vindibona1 Just curious where sourced the weight for the Elizabeth? I remember looking at trading my Profitec 300 for an Elizabeth and was surprised the Elizabeth weighed almost half as much. 27vs 50lbs if I remember correctly. I did not remember correctly. It was 27 vs 39lbsVindibona1 wrote:As I look at my data sheet, the Rancilio weight 30 pounds and the Elizabeth 42. The extra weight of the Liz must demonstrate build quality. The Elizabeth being only 11" deep it meaningful on the countertop to some degree over the Rancilio. I've now figured out making more space across the counter so the width isn't so critical any longer. I still like the look of the E61 group heads.
Sounds like you've narrowed your choice to the QM and P600. If your fortunate enough to have a place nearby to test either one out that would be the way I would go
-
- Posts: 415
- Joined: 3 years ago
Same thing applies to the SP/X as it's over 40 lbs. The 30 lb rating might be for the single boiler design...
-
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 7 years ago
I'm almost ready to pull the trigger. For some it's not a hard decision. And while in some respects I've been leaning to the Quick Mill QM67, the Profitect 600 WITH FLOW CONTROL keeps coming into the picture.SutterMill wrote:@Vindibona1 Just curious where sourced the weight for the Elizabeth? I remember looking at trading my Profitec 300 for an Elizabeth and was surprised the Elizabeth weighed almost half as much. 27vs 50lbs if I remember correctly. I did not remember correctly. It was 27 vs 39lbs
Sounds like you've narrowed your choice to the QM and P600. If your fortunate enough to have a place nearby to test either one out that would be the way I would go
QUESTION: IS THE PROFITEC 600 A BETTER MACHINE THAN THE QUICKMILL 67???
Essentially the QM67 and Prof 600 cost the same. However, WLL will install their flow control on for $100 extra. The objection that I had about width has vanished now that I' stowed my soda stream away, opening up what seems to be a ton of horizontal space and seems to have opened up the space so I'm not deciding over 1/2" of width of the machine.
So help me out, brothers and sisters... Im going to quote out-the-door price including tax for apples for apples. If I had to pick one in the next 5 minutes, which would you be telling me to pick... and why?
QUESTION: There are some options with flow control and that changes the price dynamic, so I would just want to know which you would pick of the two, as the straight up pricing is so similar.
If I could only touch and feel these machines. Paper specs are only so helpful to a point. Thoughts and experiences with these machines, and some final guidance would be so appreciated.
-
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 7 years ago
It took a lot of soul searching to determine which espresso machine I would buy. I got a great price on the Quick Mill QM67 but just couldn't get sold. I liked the Profitect 600 better, but in my heart I'm just not a milk guy, can still do milk with a single boiler or a frother and could not justify spending another $500+ to have a second boiler that might stand dormant for 80% of the time.
CURRENT PLAN: I'll be reviewing my notes again, but I am 98% sure I will buy the ECM Classika PID with a flow control device. The contenders are Whole Latte Love with an out-the-door price including tax of $1800 USD vs Clive Coffee wih Lucca flow for $1900.
Both will include a bottomless porta filter. Clive's ECM is a special edition with with a "handle" steam control in stead of the standard knob, which WLL as the traditional knob. The money is largely irrelevant as the $100 won't make a difference.
There seem to be two prevalent choices at different price points and I've seen/touched none of them. So please help me work through this as I'd like to get my machine ordered today. [One other element I'll throw in at the end too]
1) The Whole Latte Love "ball". It's got 1+1/4 turns from fully closed to fully open. The ball isn't the most attractive but appears functional for the amount of turns required from open to closed. The upcharge to provide it with the ECM Classika is $100 which I think is quite reasonable
2) The "Lucca" flow control, is a bit more ($100) more expensive.
QUESTION 1: The "paddle" seems to have a shorter throw than WLL's, but is it friendlier more efficient and as easy to control as the WLL one that has a 270° possible rotation?
Again, I"ve never even witnessed flow control, but it is intriguing and my wife says that based on the discounts provided if you order the on the machines I should not buy a machine without one.
QUESTION 2: Any advice here on flow control?
Thanks in advance
Moderator note: Merged in with OP's ongoing thread to maintain context.
CURRENT PLAN: I'll be reviewing my notes again, but I am 98% sure I will buy the ECM Classika PID with a flow control device. The contenders are Whole Latte Love with an out-the-door price including tax of $1800 USD vs Clive Coffee wih Lucca flow for $1900.
Both will include a bottomless porta filter. Clive's ECM is a special edition with with a "handle" steam control in stead of the standard knob, which WLL as the traditional knob. The money is largely irrelevant as the $100 won't make a difference.
There seem to be two prevalent choices at different price points and I've seen/touched none of them. So please help me work through this as I'd like to get my machine ordered today. [One other element I'll throw in at the end too]
1) The Whole Latte Love "ball". It's got 1+1/4 turns from fully closed to fully open. The ball isn't the most attractive but appears functional for the amount of turns required from open to closed. The upcharge to provide it with the ECM Classika is $100 which I think is quite reasonable
2) The "Lucca" flow control, is a bit more ($100) more expensive.
QUESTION 1: The "paddle" seems to have a shorter throw than WLL's, but is it friendlier more efficient and as easy to control as the WLL one that has a 270° possible rotation?
Again, I"ve never even witnessed flow control, but it is intriguing and my wife says that based on the discounts provided if you order the on the machines I should not buy a machine without one.
QUESTION 2: Any advice here on flow control?
Thanks in advance
Moderator note: Merged in with OP's ongoing thread to maintain context.
-
- Supporter ♡
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: 3 years ago
The wedge paddle flow control handle (like the one used on the Bianca) looks "nicer" according to some and is easier to manipulate (and less likely to get your fingers burned) than the ball handle. But the paddle does limit rotation to a fair bit less than 360 degrees, limiting the range of flow control. FCDs usually go from Ogm/sec to around 10 to 12g/sec at 1 to 1.25 rotations of the FCD shaft. Generally you do want to be able to completely stop flow and have access to full max water debit for your machine's pump, which for a rotary pump E61 machine with a standard gicleur is going to be around 10 to 11 g/sec. Unfortunately the paddle handle forces you to select a more limited range. The other issue is that even if you select a "most-of- the-time" useful range, these FCDs will sooner or later drift out of that range, requiring readjustments (which although not too difficult requires undoing loosening the nut to reset the shaft position and will increase the risk of leaks over time). For the above reasons I recommend equipping the FCD with a ball handle.Vindibona1 wrote:
QUESTION 1: The "paddle" seems to have a shorter throw than WLL's, but is it friendlier more efficient and as easy to control as the WLL one that has a 270° possible rotation?
Again, I"ve never even witnessed flow control, but it is intriguing and my wife says that based on the discounts provided if you order the on the machines I should not buy a machine without one.
QUESTION 2: Any advice here on flow control?
Thanks in advance
Moderator note: Merged in with OP's ongoing thread to maintain context.
-
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 7 years ago
Thanks for your reply. So much has changed in the last 24 hours. I was certain I'd be going with the ECM for several reasons, largely because there was such a huge difference in the price. Secondly I thought that the QM67 had a huge diagonal badge on both sides (majore turn-off) and lastly because of a review that said that they brew and steam boiler didn't hold pressure/temp while the coffee was brewing. Lastly, I was going for a small footprint, but recognized that there was such a small width difference between the ECM Classkia and the QM67 that it was no longer an issue after relocating my soda stream. In some respects I liked the Profitec 600 the best, but after talking to a known, reputable vendor (I won't say until the deal is done) I got a very friendly offer that I can't ignore. The "ball" FCD wasn't available so it was between the Quick Mill version (backordered) and the Lelit paddle.
To be honest, in many instances I won't even turn the steam boiler on a lot of the time but it's nice to know I would have that option. The QM67 probably isn't as well built as the Profitec 600, but neither is my current Gaggia Classic which is seen daily use for 5 years and the only sign of wear or issue was the pump which I just replaced before selling it or donating it to my daughter. That ECM looked awfully inviting but I'd initially set out for a double boiler and was sure as last night's rain that I'd end up with a Silvia Pro X.
I'm not jumping up and down in circles yet. I still have to finalizing the order, receiving it and praying that I can get some consistency, something that asn't really happened with the Gaggia.
So thanks all for your help. I hope I haven't driven y'all nuts. I done enough of that to myself. I
To be honest, in many instances I won't even turn the steam boiler on a lot of the time but it's nice to know I would have that option. The QM67 probably isn't as well built as the Profitec 600, but neither is my current Gaggia Classic which is seen daily use for 5 years and the only sign of wear or issue was the pump which I just replaced before selling it or donating it to my daughter. That ECM looked awfully inviting but I'd initially set out for a double boiler and was sure as last night's rain that I'd end up with a Silvia Pro X.
I'm not jumping up and down in circles yet. I still have to finalizing the order, receiving it and praying that I can get some consistency, something that asn't really happened with the Gaggia.
So thanks all for your help. I hope I haven't driven y'all nuts. I done enough of that to myself. I
-
- Supporter ❤
- Posts: 127
- Joined: 5 years ago
I owned a Silvia for 20 years. The thing was bomb proof. Nothing ever went wrong. Any E61 machine will have some issues over the years, not a big deal but a little deal. In 3 1/2 years worth of use (4000 espressos) on the Profitec Pro 500, I've had a dead solid state relay and some internal group gasket issues. Plus monthly maintenance lubing the cam. I put a Lucca FCD from Clive on my Pro 500 about 3 weeks ago. After screwing around with it for 2 weeks I took it off. I might put it back on later but the fact of the matter is an E61 group makes great espresso and tweaking around with the flow complicates the process and in my case just made the espresso flavors sort of muddled. So I wouldn't make any decisions based on FC. You can add it later for $200 and still be able to switch back to the original mushroom valve if you don't like it. WLL and Clive videos are great but they are essentially sales' pitches.
-
- Posts: 141
- Joined: 7 years ago
Update: Forgive me if I repeat anything I've said before. The meds I'm on make me like "15 second Mel" (reference to movie 50 first dates).
I thought for dang sure that I was going to order the Clives ECM Classika PID w paddles instead of knobs and flow control. I'd have been out the door with that for about $1900. But I still had questions.
The Profitec 600 was still on my mind. Did I really want a dual boiler for the increased costs? With the Lucca (Bianca style) paddle would have been $2800 OTD, $1000 more than the ECM Classika. And as I thought about it, the Quick Mill QM67, while probably not as robust or maybe as pretty as the Profitec or ECM should be good enough for my needs. I know there some weaknesses switching from brew to steam, largely because of a 15amp limit. I was originally turned off having seen older models with HUGE QM67 badging running down the sides, but assured that the graphic no longer exists.
Without getting into the dialog, what changed my mind is when I asked the rep if there was any room in the price? For an inexplicable reason, including the added tax I got a $300 discount off the machine, $150 add on for the Lelit FCD with a bottomless portafilter and 20g VST basket thrown in. Bottom line is that I got the QM67 with all the stuff for $400 more than the ECM or the Silvia Pro X or the Elizabeth but $400 less than the Profitec 600. The look of the E61 had me at first glance and I'm sure I'd be happy with th ECM Classica. But I can always opt not to turn the steam boiler on with the QM. I'm not sure what to expect with the build, but it's going to be here tomorrow... So fingers crossed that I'll love it.
Thanks for all the help. Once I get the hang of it I'll provide some feedback. BTW... All the other help here has taught me so much of what I didn't know about brewing espresso even though I've been doing it for 10 years. BTW... The easiest most consistent espresso I ever made was with a refurb Saeco Sirena and a $39 Cuisinart grinder and Starbucks/Costco beans. Go figure (!).
I thought for dang sure that I was going to order the Clives ECM Classika PID w paddles instead of knobs and flow control. I'd have been out the door with that for about $1900. But I still had questions.
The Profitec 600 was still on my mind. Did I really want a dual boiler for the increased costs? With the Lucca (Bianca style) paddle would have been $2800 OTD, $1000 more than the ECM Classika. And as I thought about it, the Quick Mill QM67, while probably not as robust or maybe as pretty as the Profitec or ECM should be good enough for my needs. I know there some weaknesses switching from brew to steam, largely because of a 15amp limit. I was originally turned off having seen older models with HUGE QM67 badging running down the sides, but assured that the graphic no longer exists.
Without getting into the dialog, what changed my mind is when I asked the rep if there was any room in the price? For an inexplicable reason, including the added tax I got a $300 discount off the machine, $150 add on for the Lelit FCD with a bottomless portafilter and 20g VST basket thrown in. Bottom line is that I got the QM67 with all the stuff for $400 more than the ECM or the Silvia Pro X or the Elizabeth but $400 less than the Profitec 600. The look of the E61 had me at first glance and I'm sure I'd be happy with th ECM Classica. But I can always opt not to turn the steam boiler on with the QM. I'm not sure what to expect with the build, but it's going to be here tomorrow... So fingers crossed that I'll love it.
Thanks for all the help. Once I get the hang of it I'll provide some feedback. BTW... All the other help here has taught me so much of what I didn't know about brewing espresso even though I've been doing it for 10 years. BTW... The easiest most consistent espresso I ever made was with a refurb Saeco Sirena and a $39 Cuisinart grinder and Starbucks/Costco beans. Go figure (!).