Baratza Vario W+ -- Is it a viable "do it all" grinder? - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
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Jeff
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#11: Post by Jeff »

If you're pushing half a dozen cups of light-roast espresso at a time, I wouldn't recommend the Lagom Mini. However, it does a great job at espresso grind settings for a couple cups at a time of Time Wendelboe "filter" or lighter. Here in the San Francisco area, among a local group of light-roast drinkers (filter and espresso, we generally use the same beans), it is one of the top recommendations in the under $500 range. The Vario with steel burrs does a good job, but they don't come "hyperaligned".

One challenge is that below around $1,500, pretty much everything has some significant tradeoffs involved. The cheap, Asian imports can be hit or miss for being able to align at all. If you get lucky or have a vendor that supports you well, they need a lot of time to align, a bunch of mods, and often a vacuum cleaner and ear muffs.

BrawlPaul (original poster)
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#12: Post by BrawlPaul (original poster) replying to Jeff »

Has anyone in your group suffered issues with parts failing? My only worry is that I am a current college student who will be living with another coffee drinker. He isn't as into it as a hobby like I am, but we don't exactly have the space to have two separate coffee corners. I'd also love to introduce him to even better coffee than what he usually drinks. So assuming worst case scenario, it'd be used 6 times in a day (2 filters and 4 espresso pulls). I do have my breville smart grinder that I will likely keep around, since it's not a bad workhorse. No idea how that is for filter coffee, since my current brews are marred by the fact I had to adjust the internal burr to get a good espresso range. I hope that making it a bit coarser could help improve it as a brew grinder. This may just need to be a decision I make for myself and figure out what sacrifices to make at my price point. Good espresso is expensive for sure. Really appreciate the insight.

BrawlPaul (original poster)
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#13: Post by BrawlPaul (original poster) »

baldheadracing wrote:Sorry, I don't know of anything with good-for-light-roast flat burrs that has been proven in the marketplace at the Vario W+'s $600 price that does what you seem to want a grinder to do (stock as-delivered). I'd even surmise that most Varios would need to be disassembled, modified, and hyper-aligned to get the best espresso from the steel burrs. I really like the light-roast espresso from my (modified, hyper-aligned, etc.) steel-burred Vario and that is mostly what I use that grinder for (and thanks to Lance Hedrick's videos, I don't have any FOMO with all the new unproven grinders that are coming).

A DF64 with some SSP's is right around $600 but I have no experience. However, to me the DF64 is like my TCL TV. My TCL has just as good a picture as the equivalent SONY, but a bit rough on the amenities, but also at quite a significant discount. What I gave up was that I had to play the panel lottery: TCL's quality control is nowhere near SONY's - if I got a TV with a good panel then I'd be happy; but if I got a TV with noticeable dirty screen effect or dead pixels then I'd be stuck (returning a big TV for picture quality issues is a PITA). I think DF64's are the same: if you get a good one then you'd be happy (after doing some mods), but if you got a bad one then you're essentially stuck with a sub-par grinder (unless you have access to a machine shop).

... so I'd guess that you're pretty much stuck on compromising on something, even at $600.
I really feel the same about the DF grinders. I am sure they are great performers, but having the risk of random parts not being well aligned at factory just doesn't sit well for me. The $600 dollars is a bit of an investment, so I can't exactly afford to just replace a DF grinder a year or two from now. I did mention to another commenter that my breville smart grinder could work as a solid brew grinder. Any insight on that use case? My current filter cups (clever/aeropress since they are forgiving) are somewhat mediocre due to a large creation of fines, but I can dial back the internal burr setting to make my range coarser. I may just end up upgrading a brew only grinder like an ode when I feel I can justify the finances on coffee again.

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Jeff
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#14: Post by Jeff »

BrawlPaul wrote:Has anyone in your group suffered issues with parts failing [on the Lagom Mini]?
I asked locally and on two other forums that have members that often pull espresso from coffee that is lighter (and generally harder) than Tim Wendelboe's. Some people with traditional tastes would consider these coffees too light for even filter, not to mention espresso. There are reports of the Mini pausing briefly (which I have seen on very hard coffees). One report of problems with "a particularly hard Sidamo" where Option-O replaced the gearbox/motor and "it is working nicely" since then. I don't know if that was an early model or the one with the revised design (changed last summer).

Reports of the "clones" of the Mini failing. Not surprising to me, but worth mentioning as they seem attractively priced.

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baldheadracing
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#15: Post by baldheadracing »

BrawlPaul wrote:I really feel the same about the DF grinders. I am sure they are great performers, but having the risk of random parts not being well aligned at factory just doesn't sit well for me. The $600 dollars is a bit of an investment, so I can't exactly afford to just replace a DF grinder a year or two from now. I did mention to another commenter that my breville smart grinder could work as a solid brew grinder. Any insight on that use case? My current filter cups (clever/aeropress since they are forgiving) are somewhat mediocre due to a large creation of fines, but I can dial back the internal burr setting to make my range coarser. I may just end up upgrading a brew only grinder like an ode when I feel I can justify the finances on coffee again.
To me, the Smart Grinder Pro means dark roast. The burr design is based on the classic Tre Spade small conical burr, which was one of the best burrsets for small hand grinders - in the last century IMO. However, I think that something gets lost when you start to spin a small conical burr faster than hand grinder speeds, although the SGP isn't that bad at 450rpm. (The maximum rpm that people use for hand grinders is typically around 120rpm.)

I won't get into a treatise of subsequent small conical burr design, but in a nutshell, even with the burrs that today have a reputation for lighter roasts, you (still) want hand grinder rpm and not much more ... which begs the question - why not get a hand grinder? For espresso I don't find a hand grinder an issue, especially with a Pavoni which I find performs best with 12g-14g doses. My hand grinder (not a tabletop manual grinder) limit is around 16g - more than that and I'll switch to a powered grinder - I actually used my Vario (steel burrs, modified, etc.) this morning for a pourover of a Diego Bermudez Castillo.

That leads to the other question with grinders - what capacity for brew grinding? I wouldn't be pushing 60g of coffee at a time through a small conical; 30g would probably be the limit to me. OTOH, a Vario would be okay with 60g at a time (at brew grind sizes), but if you wanted 120g for cold brew ...

ETA: I haven't said anything about the Lagom Mini because I don't have one as I already have too many grinders :oops:. It does do well in reviews and people like the grinder. It seems to be best (and most expensive) of the grinders using the small conical burrsets designed with light roasted coffee in mind turning at lower rpms (200?) The price is good for me in Canada but not so much within the USA due to the 25% import duty. You typically avoid the import duty by importing direct as the value is under the $800 de minimis value for Americans.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

Jonk
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#16: Post by Jonk »

As for specific advice on what handgrinder, the 1Zpresso K line are good all-rounders in my experience. 12g might still feel like a chore for espresso if it's very light roasts, but for something more medium-light they're a good match for a Europiccola and pretty much on par with Vario BG for filter in my opinion.

randyh
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#17: Post by randyh »

I would second the handgrinder for unquestionably best bang for buck cup quality as well as satisfying any longevity concerns. Handgrinding for filter is easy and quick and actually pleasurable. Handgrinding for espresso could get old, but there are motors you can get (GA Woody for 1zpresso or Commandante) and would still be less than a Vario with steel burrs.

If you went electric, IMHO for affordable do it all you should some kind of single dose 64mm flat burr grinder. The burr set you choose can be based on what you value more, great filter and ok espresso or great espresso and ok filter. SSP cast is supposed to be the best to do both in the light to medium roast range, otherwise you will be sacrificing on one department to excel in the other. Consider the Timemore Sculptor 064s. $349 Kickstarter price but they said they would continue this price on an Indiegogo thing. few reviews on it are mostly good. stock burrs on it favor espresso but can do ok job with filter. at some point you could get the SSP cast burrs and have solid performance for both light/medium filter and espresso.

BrawlPaul (original poster)
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#18: Post by BrawlPaul (original poster) »

baldheadracing wrote:To me, the Smart Grinder Pro means dark roast. The burr design is based on the classic Tre Spade small conical burr, which was one of the best burrsets for small hand grinders - in the last century IMO. However, I think that something gets lost when you start to spin a small conical burr faster than hand grinder speeds, although the SGP isn't that bad at 450rpm. (The maximum rpm that people use for hand grinders is typically around 120rpm.)

I won't get into a treatise of subsequent small conical burr design, but in a nutshell, even with the burrs that today have a reputation for lighter roasts, you (still) want hand grinder rpm and not much more ... which begs the question - why not get a hand grinder? For espresso I don't find a hand grinder an issue, especially with a Pavoni which I find performs best with 12g-14g doses. My hand grinder (not a tabletop manual grinder) limit is around 16g - more than that and I'll switch to a powered grinder - I actually used my Vario (steel burrs, modified, etc.) this morning for a pourover of a Diego Bermudez Castillo.

That leads to the other question with grinders - what capacity for brew grinding? I wouldn't be pushing 60g of coffee at a time through a small conical; 30g would probably be the limit to me. OTOH, a Vario would be okay with 60g at a time (at brew grind sizes), but if you wanted 120g for cold brew ...

ETA: I haven't said anything about the Lagom Mini because I don't have one as I already have too many grinders :oops:. It does do well in reviews and people like the grinder. It seems to be best (and most expensive) of the grinders using the small conical burrsets designed with light roasted coffee in mind turning at lower rpms (200?) The price is good for me in Canada but not so much within the USA due to the 25% import duty. You typically avoid the import duty by importing direct as the value is under the $800 de minimis value for Americans.
Wow I really appreciate this response. I've always been a bit iffy with handgrinders, but I also only have a very cheap one (Hario Skerton). The adjustment mechanism made me want to tear my brains out and it was so unbearably slow. The only upside was that my dogs would cock their heads at me and look really cute when I ground beans in the morning :D . I've heard great things about hand grinders too, just a little worried about making espresso a chore rather than an enjoyable part of my day.

As far as dosage, I usually just make coffee for myself. I usually do a 30g/500mL clever brew or a 12g/200mL aeropress brew. My cold brew game wasn't very good last summer, as I was too cheap to spend specialty coffee money on the beans I sourced. I just ended up just using old grocery store beans and masking the burnt notes with some milk and lyles golden syrup. If I do the same, I'm sure a SGP would work fine.
Assuming I get a quality hand grinder, I guess that leaves me with a new question. Which one? The K line from 1zpresso looks good and can produce a great filter brew too, but their espresso only line is about 100 bucks less. I am assuming you are suggesting I handgrind for espresso and then use electric for brew?
I could just go ahead and buy the k series handgrinder and see how I like the workflow. What I am seeing online is ~60 seconds max for grinding for espresso and filter. I have to admit it doesn't have the luster of a big shiny new grinder, but that kind of thinking is what I believe leads to these crazy coffee grinder hype trains we've been seeing as of late.

Thanks again for all the help.

BrawlPaul (original poster)
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#19: Post by BrawlPaul (original poster) »

Jonk wrote:As for specific advice on what handgrinder, the 1Zpresso K line are good all-rounders in my experience. 12g might still feel like a chore for espresso if it's very light roasts, but for something more medium-light they're a good match for a Europiccola and pretty much on par with Vario BG for filter in my opinion.
I do tend to go for a more developed roast for espresso right now, but that's mostly because I don't exactly have the equipment to not end up with nasty sour espresso unless I go a little darker. I really do like the price for the hand grinders and am a little less worried about potentially upgrading in the future, as the hand grinder not only takes up less space, but will actually be useful if I decide it's time for an electric grinder.

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baldheadracing
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#20: Post by baldheadracing »

BrawlPaul wrote:... Assuming I get a quality hand grinder, I guess that leaves me with a new question. Which one? The K line from 1zpresso looks good and can produce a great filter brew too, but their espresso only line is about 100 bucks less. I am assuming you are suggesting I handgrind for espresso and then use electric for brew? ...
There are many threads about which 1zpresso is best for which situation. I haven't kept track, but I seem to remember that there are some models that people prefer for light roasts.

In general for small conical hand grinders, I'd avoid Italmill burrs and clones of the Italmill designs unless you're never going lighter than medium. They're great for medium and darker roasts, but IMO those burrs don't work as well with lighter roasts compared to Commandante-style burrs or Etzinger-style burrs (not the weird Etzinger, the standard Etzinger found in Orphan Espresso grinders like the Lido Basic, cloned in the ZP6, etc.). The 47mm/48mm Italmills are also a bit too aggressive for me for light roasts (requiring an uncomfortable amount of effort).

As for handgrind/electric, yes, I like two grinders for a $600 budget - but I would get a $200-$300 hand grinder first, and think about the electric later.

YMMV.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

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