Any cheaper double boilers other than Lelit Bianca that do flow control or significant pre-infusion well? - Page 2

#11: Post by **mohninme** » April 14th, 2021, 11:20 pm

walr00s wrote:https://www.1st-line.com/buy/caffeum-pe ... o-machine/ 1600 dollar e61 dual boiler

https://www.amazon.com/Coffee-Sensor-Co ... B0834DV619 160 dollar flow control kit

this was my plan back when I thought I needed dual boiler

This was going to be my recommendation too. Minima plus a flow control kit. Few to choose from now out there. Beat me to it

April 15th, 2021, 2:00 pm

How do the flow control knobs compare to the Bianca built in design?

Also those Crem machines look super intriguing, but not any better price wise again. Would be interesting to see how the programmable flow controls compare to something like the Decent. Could certainly be an interesting option.

#13: Post by **Jeff** » April 15th, 2021, 4:12 pm

I'm unimpressed with the Crem programming approach, at least from what I saw at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpres ... em-one-2b/

April 15th, 2021, 5:10 pm

Yeah, the naming, editing... "interface" seems really annoying, but I gotta say, it's leaps and bounds ahead of the Bianca's "approach"....

#15: Post by **Plinyyounger** » April 15th, 2021, 5:55 pm

Jeff wrote:I'm unimpressed with the Crem programming approach, at least from what I saw at https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpres ... em-one-2b/

When I read this and without looking at the posters equipment, I bet myself it was a DE owner. I was right, lol. I'm not disrespecting in anyway, but DE owners I think do have the only super unique interface (which I do like). With that said I think from what I've seen the crem is a step in the right direction and where I feel most E61's will go in the future.

April 16th, 2021, 3:37 pm

I do think the Crem machines is in a really weird niche. Its hard to justify buying that when you can get a Decent for not much more. Similar argument with the Lelit but at least there it's built and can be run as a really standard, classic E61.

Since profiling options look incredibly limited, let me come back to preinfusion. I am curious really how much profiling even helps without the feedback you get from a Decent. My understanding is most of the advantage is precise control over the infusion. How different is that from an E61 with line pressure? Can't you infuse exactly however much you want and for however long you want?

Basically it seems like my options are:
Bianca
E61 with flow control add-on
E61 or other with pre-infusion (line pressure, chambers, etc)

Just trying to understand how different those options really are.

#17: Post by **Jeff** » April 16th, 2021, 10:21 pm

A Bianca or ECM/Profitec with a flow kit would be my choices over my DE1 if I either wanted an E61 or my budget was limited. Though manual, I believe you can get very good results by carefully watching the pressure gauge and the flow from the bottom of the basket. In fact, it was the Bianca that got me thinking about replacing my well-trusted and, with the regimen I developed over the years, repeatable E61 HX.

Edit: A plumbable E61 box and the water treatment required seem to be at the price of a Lelit/ECM/Profitec already. As the control and ability to watch basket pressure aren't there with line-pressure PI, it isn't an option that I considered.

April 17th, 2021, 12:08 pm

Plinyyounger wrote:I feel most E61's will go in the future.

I think this flow controller can work with none E61 machines as well.

#19: Post by **walr00s** » April 17th, 2021, 12:48 pm

cgibsong002 wrote:
Basically it seems like my options are:
Bianca
E61 with flow control add-on
E61 or other with pre-infusion (line pressure, chambers, etc)

Just trying to understand how different those options really are.

My understanding is Bianca or other 61 flow control are basically the same inside the basket. e61 with other pre-infusion is much less fine grained. Essentially any e61 has a middle position that allows water to flow into the basket at whatever pressure it has without the pump pushing it. For reservoirs (like mine), my testing suggests this is near useless. You can't saturate the puck all the way with it in less than 2 minutes. With line pressure...it's a sort of compromise. My line pressure is almost 4 bar, which is generally the pressure I hold my flow control at, and that's maybe 75% of what I use the flow control for. I pre infuse until I can clearly see the bottom of the puck is evenly saturated and flow seems to be possible, and then I let it rise to ~8 bar (you could achieve this without flow control with an OPV adjustment, but you won't be able to fine tune it easily). I run until there's about 10g yield left in my recipe and then dial it back for the last 10-15% of the extraction down gradually to ~3 bar, which obviously line pressure isn't going to help with.

#20: Post by **Auctor** » April 17th, 2021, 1:03 pm

walr00s wrote: I pre infuse until I can clearly see the bottom of the puck is evenly saturated and flow seems to be possible, and then I let it rise to ~8 bar (you could achieve this without flow control with an OPV adjustment, but you won't be able to fine tune it easily). I run until there's about 10g yield left in my recipe and then dial it back for the last 10-15% of the extraction down gradually to ~3 bar, which obviously line pressure isn't going to help with.

I agree with this completely. One thing I'll add is that personally, while a declining pressure profile at the end of the shot has helped remove some lingering bitterness, I haven't yet experienced a transformational change in the cup using this method. I think flow control for me has been most useful since I haven't plumbed in my machine to take advantage of line pressure preinfusion. Being able to gently saturate the puck prior to the full [8] bars has led to more even, good looking extractions.