It's been a few years since looking for a machine, and more than a few years since last posting on HB, so thought I'd solicit input on a choice that has me locked up. Have been a very happy Breville Dual Boiler owner for a long time - 9 years now on current machine without a single problem other than a broken OPV spring last year and a couple o-ring replacements. I like the predictability and stability of the machine, I know exactly how to use it, and it's consistent every time. Love it. However, the 24 yr old is (finally) moving out in a couple weeks - and he's taking the BDB with him. Part gift, part him buying it out for partial market price. Anyway, soon to be machine-less.

Our use case: predominantly either straight shots, long blacks, or sorta Americano's (in that I like a 2 to 1 water to espresso ratio). Occasionally make milk drinks but it's not a daily thing. 90% of the time it's just one drink, and the vast majority of the remainder is two drinks and almost never milk drinks as the kids (2 adult boys) virtually always just do straight shots. I can't even remember a time we made 4 drinks at a time and it's extraordinarily rare to even make 3 back to back. I like decent steaming power when using it, but it's not a must have - but don't want anemic power either. On the rare occasions of making a latte, I want it to be silky and good.

Budget: want to keep it at $1500-$1600 if possible, and less would be welcome.

Grinder: thankfully, kid isn't taking that so no need to replace. Vario-W with ceramic burrs has performed well and will be staying.

Options: I've zeroed in on 4 machines and am completely torn. I know that only I can truly decide, but any input on how to frame the thinking and aspects is most welcome. Looking at....

Profitec Go: didn't think I'd even consider a single boiler but at $999, it may be an option. Like the PID a lot (had a Gaggia Classic as my first machine way back in the day, and really liked it but tired of guessing the temp all the time), the steaming power seems more than adequate, but wondering if it really would be inconvenient to switch around. Once up near the $1k mark, does it make sense to stick with premium single boiler or just make jump up to next level? Or given the use case above, is the extra $ really buying much actual, realized capability? Lack of easy hot water dispensing also seems kinda annoying.

Profitec 400: Super impressed with build quality and amount of value packed in, though while stable the lack of PID to truly adjust is something I wonder about. Then I remember that i've had a BDB for 9 years and haven't once changed the temp from 200 on it. Like the pre-infusion capability, but biggest issue seems warmup time. I like that the BDB is ready in 5-10 mins and wonder if this would really gnaw at me over time.

Profitec 300: Probably seeing a trend here, something about Profitec's engineering philosophy and design appeals to me. Seems like closest cousin to BDB, with added bonus of being able to turn off steam boiler (since we'd often not use it). Would it peter out after 2 drinks? How similar is it in performance to BDB?

Bezzera PM13: I understand that it's also known as the Crema if not bought at WLL. The only non-Profitec on the list. Fast heat up, PID, seems to hit all the features, although no pre-infusion as I understand it. Also wonder about joystick controls vs valves - I've just never used a joystick machine so don't know. Also seems to heat up the case a lot - read where people have burned themselves on the top or the valve stems. Don't know nearly as much about this brand but seems very well respected.

I think i'd like to keep it to this list, though open if there's something really glaring missing. A lot of typing but not sure it was very clear, but I hope it makes sense. Many thanks to any tips.

I had the Profitec 600 before moving to the Decent espresso machine and I would highly recommend the Profitec Pro 300 for your needs/price point. I was considering the BDB, 300, and 600 at the time. In retrospect, the 300 would have been the more economical choice.

The 300 is capable of producing good milk texture and amazing shots if you spend the time learning how to dial in those factors.

baldheadracing wrote:Why not just get another BDB? A decent argument could be made that all of your choices are inferior to a BDB.

You know, I....don't really have a good answer for that. I think I looked initially at it very early on in the process, couldn't find a Black Sesame one in stock anywhere, and just ruled out the idea. Which is odd since all but one of the options I listed were stainless or chrome. I really liked the BDB all these years, and sure was a great value when it was hundreds cheaper, but with price increases it's about on the same level as the others so I didn't really think about it much.

I used to own a Profitec Pro 300 for a few years, so I can provide my user's experience with the machine.

It's very well-made; the build quality is excellent and if you like a clean-minimalistic design, this fits the bill. The trade-off with it being so compact is that the boilers are indeed on the small side. The steam boiler has enough capacity to make, one 12-16oz latte, one 8oz Americano, or a couple 6oz cappuccinos back-to-back before the boiler needs to refill and reheat (~5 min). I definitely found to be pushing the limits of its steam power when trying to steam 8-10 ozs of milk for a latte; it tended to peter out near the end of steaming. You can swap the 2-hole steam tip for a 4-hole one, but that just means you get more steam up-front at the expense of it running out quicker. The quality of milk it can produce is very good once you nail down the technique, but its lack of power & stamina is one of the main reasons I upgraded to my current Synchronika.

The 300 also doesn't have a huge amount of headroom if you want to put a large cup and scale on the drip tray, but if you're just using demitasse/cortado-sized cups it's fine. I don't think I found myself missing pre-infusion, and I think you're fine to go without if you prefer medium- or darker-roasted coffee.

The Pro 300's brew boiler is bolted directly on top of the grouphead, which helps with warm-up time compared to your standard non-saturated E61 machine. I also had my 300 hooked up to a smart plug, so I could program it to turn on 20 min before I woke up in the morning, so waiting for warm-up was never an issue.

Thoughts on the BDB

Apparently BDB's grouphead has a heating element attached to it with its own dedicated PID (source), so I'd say both machines are equally temp-stable and quick to heat up; they just use different methods of active heating.

Pre-2020 the BDB was an incredible buy (it even went sub-$1000 during sales), but with the price steadily going due to supply chain issues (and it staying there), it's definitely fallen in line price-wise with other entry-level dual boilers now. Prior to the Pro 300 I owned a Breville Infuser (BES840XL), and Profitec beats Breville by a mile in terms of build quality. However, the Breville is still more competitive when it comes for features-for-dollar, given its programmability and pre-infusion capability. Also, it has that nifty Slayer mod, which you definitely can't do on the Pro 300, and you'd need the Flow Control device to achieve that on the Pro 400.

On pre-infusion

The Pro 400's pre-infusion is pretty limited compared to that of the BDB. According to WLL, the 400's pre-infusion is just vibe pump pressure for 5 seconds with a built-in pause before the pump resumes. You can't change the duration (the BDB seems infinite) nor the pressure (whereas you can do 60-90% of pump pressure on the BDB). Sure, the vibe pump has a bit of a ramp-up period to full pressure (looks to be about 4s before it reaches full 9 bars), but it's not the same as, say, maintaining a constant 5 bars for x seconds. If you went with the Pro 400 and wanted better control over pre-infusion, I'd get the Flow Control add-on (and then it would give you more control than a stock, un-modded BDB), but comparing the two machines as-stock, the Breville again is more versatile. Note that there's no way to mod the Pro 300 to give it preinfusion capability AFAIK, if that's something you really value.

Another contender

Have you considered the Lelit Mara X? It sits in-between the Pro 300 and Pro 400 in terms of price, and it was likely the inspiration for Profitec to come out with the 400. The Mara X is a heat exchanger like the Pro 400, but it has a unique feature in that there's a temp probe at the grouphead's thermosyphon, which gives you better control and stability of the brew temperature (check out the H-B review and another one by Lance Hendrick. Unlike the Pro 400, which only lets you approximate brew temp through controlling the steam boiler, the Mara X gives you the option of prioritizing temperature stability at the grouphead (or steam boiler, your choice). It has "mechanical preinfusion" (you can read about it in the linked H-B review), but like with other E61 machines you can also retrofit it with a Flow Control device if you desire.

Lelit products are really popular because they're feature-rich for the price; however, overall fit and finish (e.g., quality of stainless steel casing) aren't as good as Profitec's.

Wrap-up

As @baldheadracing said, all of your BDB alternatives are lacking in some feature compared to the BDB; however, any of the Italian-made machines would probably last longer than the Breville, assuming you maintain everything properly. I don't know how often the BDB goes on sale in the U.S.; I've heard that people can get them from Bed, Bath and Beyond with a 20% off coupon?

If you got through this wall of text, 1) well done, and 2) hope I've given you something to chew on to better-evaluate your priorities

luckydragon wrote:I used to own a Profitec Pro 300 for a few years, so I can provide my user's experience with the machine.

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If you got through this wall of text, 1) well done, and 2) hope I've given you something to chew on to better-evaluate your priorities

Thank you, not only was it a very enjoyable wall, it was quite helpful too! The Pro 300 def looks like better build but not quite as versatile BDB, makes total sense. Thinking back on our usage patterns, I can't remember the last time I steamed over 8 oz of milk so perhaps it may work, plus being able to turn off steam boiler for the 80% of non-milk drinks is appealing. Wasn't as hot for it at $1700 but WLL just posted a refurb for $1300ish, maybe should relook at that.

I really have enjoyed the BDB, and 9 years without a problem other than a couple O-rings and a busted OPV spring is a pretty good run. I did indeed get it at Bed Bath & Beyond with a 20% coupon back in the day for just over $1000, but alas, BBB no longer carries the Dual Boiler, so that's out. And with a base price of $1599 now at the few other retailers with stock, not quite as a compelling case.

And lastly, since I have a sizable store credit at WLL and they don't carry Lelit, I didn't look at that direction. Looks quite interesting.

Again, thanks for the input - it not only was good specifics on indiv machines but helped focus my thinking on what's actually impactful for me.