Analysis paralysis - $5000 CAD budget for espresso machine

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
Newfie
Posts: 30
Joined: 2 years ago

#1: Post by Newfie »

Hi all,

First of all, this website has been my main source of reading material for the last 4 months. So thank you for all the amazing resources and in-depth conversations!

I currently own a Gaggia Classic Pro w/PID installed and have very recently upgraded my Mignon Silenzio to the Lagom P-64 with HU SSP burrs. The opportunity came up to buy one and I figured I can't go wrong with getting my grinder upgrade out of the way early. This also allows me to spend more time researching a machine because I'm terrified of buyer's remorse. Everything in Canada is crazy expensive compared to the US or EU and this will easily be the most expensive single item that my wife and I purchase for ourselves.

- Our usage is usually ~4 drinks on weekdays and ~6 on the weekends. Mostly espresso with occasional milk drinks.
- I haven't really worked on espresso machines before, besides installing the PID to Gaggia but I'm very willing to learn and do repairs myself.
- Start-up times don't really matter to me because I'll either use a smart plug or have a machine that has the capability to turn on at a set time.
- We mostly drink medium-medium/light roasts but I'd like to be able to experiment with all types really.
- I was trying to stay under $5000 CAD but I'm willing to wait longer/save a bit more depending on advice and more research. Hard cap $6500.
- Main goal is best taste in the cup for straight espresso shots, with as much ease and consistency as possible and the ability to steam milk.
- I live in an apartment, so plumbing a machine isn't something I can do (But I wouldn't mind the option for the future).
- Rotary pump. I love quiet mechanics/electronics. I also like the ability to plumb it in, if I end up in a situation where that's possible.

I keep falling in love with different machines and I'm quickly learning that no matter which machine I choose, there will be someone on one of these forums that has something bad to say about it which ends up with me second guessing everything.

My sights were first set on the Bianca, for these reasons:

- I love the look of it (I even upgraded my coffee station to make sure I could fit it, stained it walnut to match Bianca wood, and coated it with polyurethane).
- Comes with flow control already installed + a lot of good accessories that I'd end up wanting anyways like a bottomless portafilter.
- It seems like great value for the cost. I don't think I'd get an ECM or Profitec dual boiler simply on price difference, even after reading countless times that they're built a bit better)
- There's lots of local places in Montreal that sells Lelit so if there was any major repair to be done that I might not feel comfortable doing, I could easily get it serviced.
- There's a lot of online resources as it's a pretty common machine to own and I can find nice maintenance guides that are easy to follow like this one.

After a few weeks of reading everything I could on Bianca, I started thinking that maybe this is a little too much for me. While flow control seems great for experimenting and getting lots of different types of profiles it also means another variable that can go wrong and I really want consistency + ease. I also want my wife to be able to pull a shot comfortably without worrying about the paddle much, although I'm sure she could adapt to it. I also started reading that a lot of these paddle profiles are really trying to imitate lever profiles. Even reading a little on the Decent, one of the more popular flow profiles seems to be the Londinium. So I figured "why not go to the source?" and started reading about lever machines.

I want to preface this part by saying I haven't personally tasted espresso from a lever machine and I realize that's probably a #1 priority before I make any decision. This is all based on my understanding after a lot of reading.


It's very apparent that people who taste espresso on a good lever machine, never go back to a pump. I've even seen a few people even sell their Bianca to only end up with a lever machine and I don't want to end up as one of those people, selling at a loss on a very expensive machine. If there's people who just prefer the taste of a pump machine over a good lever then please speak up in here because I haven't read that yet.

This had me looking at the Londinium R24
- Advertised to be simplistic. "No cooling shots. No warming shots. No back-flushing. Just pull & go. Repeat as desired"
- Less parts than a dual boiler means less to repair to me. Business model built on having readily available parts quickly, with good support on how to fix things.
- I love the look even more than Bianca.
- Has a tank and a rotary pump so I don't need to plumb it in like a lot of other good spring levers.
- Ability to change pre-infusion pressure from my phone.
- Ability to set a time for the machine to turn on.
- I like the toggles for the water wand and steam.
- 58mm so I can still use accessories I bought.

All this seemed to tick more boxes than Bianca for me. The problem is that all this info is mostly coming from the owner himself. The forum is locked to people who purchased the machine so I can't get much recent information from customers. There's no prominent reviewers that show it on YouTube so that I can get a good unbiased opinion. While I like the business model for self-repair, I like the ability to take it somewhere if I really need to more. It's really pushing my budget. I also came across this thread which really didn't shine the company in the best light and mentions unfounded claims they make. At the same time, there is just as vocal a crowd that says it's the best service they have ever received.

I keep feeling like I'm at square 1 and maybe I should just get something like Lelit Elizabeth, save the money and be done with it. At the same time, I'm really enjoying this as a hobby and as mentioned before, I don't want to deal with buyers remorse.

I guess besides the conversation I'm trying to open up, some straight questions I have are:
- Does anyone know cafes in MTL that use a lever I can taste espresso from or are does anyone know of meet-ups where I can try a bunch of machines?
- Based on all the information I gave, is there any machine you think I should give a closer look?
- Are there new machines coming out soon that I should keep an eye on? I keep seeing the ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva mentioned as a good competitor to the LR24 but I can't actually find any site that sells them.

Thanks for your time

John49
Posts: 322
Joined: 9 years ago

#2: Post by John49 »

Since most of your drinks are without milk, have you considered a Strietman CT2. It's small, ready in 8 minutes, simple to use and can produce incredible shots. Keep the Gaggia for steaming the occasional milk.

Nickriders
Posts: 89
Joined: 9 years ago

#3: Post by Nickriders »

Hi Adam, you can pm me question if you want. I have the LR (similar to R24) and have bench test it against LMLM, R9 ONE, Bianca with friends in Montreal with roaster your know. Love the simplicity of it and the fact that if you want, you can fuss around with pi pressure and dose. It's also wife friendly. She didn't want to touch the machine at first and now make me latte in the morning.
Cheers Nicolas

Stavey
Posts: 129
Joined: 4 years ago

#4: Post by Stavey »

decent DE1
Will do what every other machine mentioned on here will do , plus lots more. It will also do it faster. Haters will hate but fact is for features and control to achieve the absolute best cup possible. The choice is simple Decent DE1. Unless you want the old school look there is no reason to look elsewhere.

Newfie (original poster)
Posts: 30
Joined: 2 years ago

#5: Post by Newfie (original poster) »

John49 wrote:Since most of your drinks are without milk, have you considered a Strietman CT2. It's small, ready in 8 minutes, simple to use and can produce incredible shots. Keep the Gaggia for steaming the occasional milk.
I did look at this but I'd like to sell the Gaggia and get something that could do both brewing and steaming because I'm limited with how much I can plug in. I also would prefer something 58mm so I can keep other accessories I have.
Stavey wrote:decent DE1
Will do what every other machine mentioned on here will do , plus lots more. It will also do it faster. Haters will hate but fact is for features and control to achieve the absolute best cup possible. The choice is simple Decent DE1. Unless you want the old school look there is no reason to look elsewhere.
I like the look of it and definitely considered it. It would be the most expensive option by ~$500 and I don't love how much it relies on technology. I worry it isn't as future-proof and doing repairs seems more difficult. I've also read that Decent shots tend to lack mouthfeel of classic espresso shots. Would love to hear your feedback if you've heard differently though!

Marmot
Posts: 375
Joined: 3 years ago

#6: Post by Marmot »

Hey!

You can use the Bianca as a normal E61 machine if you set the flow control device to stock flow. You can even take off the handel so you don't accidently change it again.
I mainly use a Bezzera Strega and an Izzo Alex Duetto with flow control next to each other. I really like the Strega especially for dark roasts. However for really light roasts I tend to prefer the flow control on the Izzo. For me it is a really important tool to finetune light roast coffees. I can preinfuse on the Strega for any amount of time and at any pressure but so far I could not get the same notes on light roasts like I did on the Izzo.
For dark roasts it's the other way around. I can replicate a declining pressure curve on the Izzo with the flow control but I don't achieve the same mouthfeel as on the Strega with its spring. That's why I still use both of them ;)

So for your preference in coffee I guess a machine with flow control could be the better choice. It will also be easier to do longer shots and maybe turbo shots if you ever want to try that. But I think a lever machine will also make you happy and might feel and look better and therefore be more inviting to use.

One thing you could check out now without spending (almost) anything is a dimmer switch for the pump on your Gaggia. I recently tried it on one of my machines and it really works well. You just attach it to the power source of the pump and can then control pressure. That way you could try out (to some extent) how a lever shot feels and what efffect it has on your coffee. However for your light roasts a long preinfusion with minimal pressure might be the best way to go.

emradguy
Supporter ♡
Posts: 914
Joined: 10 years ago

#7: Post by emradguy »

I've got the Londinium L1 Compressa. It's basically a stripped down LR24, which has to be plumbed. I tossed back and forth between the two, and decided on the Compressa because I was tired of repairing my Duetto, which was already plumbed in, and wanted to get as simple a machine as possible, while still moving into the higher end of things. As you said, why not go to the source (since so many people using pump machines are actually emulating the spring lever shot profile). I looked hard at DE1 but, like I said, I was trying to get away from technology and a lot of parts to mess with. Photos of the inside of a Bianca, were a deal breaker. That machine looks like a royal PITA to fix, because there's absolutely no free space in there.

I'd agree with the suggestion to consider the Streitman and keeping your Gaggia, a Cremina, an LR24.

There's a long thread on here on the LR24. I did a review of the Compressa on the Kafatek Forums, which includes a lot of photos of the inside.
https://forums.kafatek.com/t/l1-compres ... hotos/6453
The Londinium machines are extremely robust. Yeah, their forums are restricted to users, but just about everyone there is really happy with their machine. So, you're not missing anything. There are stored videos on how to do repairs/maintenance which are really easy to follow, and Reiss Gunson literally provides real time video chat with you to walk you through anything you're having trouble with. He spent several hours with me trying to figure out why my machine tripped the GFCI, and sent me a new heating element (which I now have as a spare). Turned out it had something to do with how ground circuits operate in the UK versus how GFCI switches work in the US. A licensed electrician came to my house and told me to leave the machine off the GFCI (pm me and I'll answer any questions). I just changed my piston seals 2 days ago. It was easy, and took me about 90 minutes, including polishing the brass, getting it all back together, fingerprint smudges cleaned off the group, etc, and then about 45 minutes warm up to pull a shot confirming order has been restored to the universe. It wasn't leaking, but I'd had it in service about a year and wanted to get it done. I ran into zero complications.
LMWDP #748

samsonpvr
Posts: 78
Joined: 6 years ago

#8: Post by samsonpvr »

I've spent the past few months shopping for an upgrade. I read every ECM, Lelit, Decent, LMLM, GS3, and Londinium post I could find across a number of forums. I watched hours of review and workflow videos. I was ready to pull the trigger on most of those machines at some point. However, I never had a peace about the decision until I decided on the LR24. My machine shipped a few days ago. No doubts and no regrets.

User avatar
BaristaBoy E61
Posts: 3512
Joined: 9 years ago

#9: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

Analysis paralysis?

This thread is worth the read:

Choosing an Espresso Machine Rationally
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

jpaulm
Posts: 72
Joined: 2 years ago

#10: Post by jpaulm »

I bought a Bezzera Strega in December. Others I considered were Profitec Pro 800 and ACS Evo Leva. So far I am very pleased with it.

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