Advice on espresso machine/grinder for a newbie, budget sub $1000 - Page 2

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
engh (original poster)
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#11: Post by engh (original poster) »

randyh wrote:The grinder is an easier decision, Sette 270 or a good quality hand grinder, of which there are MANY good ones to choose from in the $150-300 range. The Sette produces high quality grind for espresso, and main drawback is the noise. Maybe reliability concerns but most people have found Baratza customer service to be very good. I'd go with hand grinding.
The machine is harder to find fitting this budget for good steaming capabilities. IMO, a used E61 HX would be the way to go. I've used one for 4.5 years as my first plug in machine and it's served me well. HX machines seem to have fallen out of favor, so you can get a pretty good deal for a used one (~$800). eventually you can add flow control and really learn alot about brewing espresso.
Or... you could roll the dice and pre-order the Odyssey Argos for $850.
Any E61 HX machines you would recommend I consider?

engh (original poster)
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#12: Post by engh (original poster) »

gobucks wrote:For the grinder, I think a sette 270 or a eureka mignon should be sufficient, you may be able to find a good deal on a used one, or you can buy various eureka models direct from italy for pretty cheap here: https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/en/

I'd say the biggest issue with your $1000 budget is that it sounds like you're going to do a lot of milk steaming, and if you're spending $300 or so on grinder, it's going to be really tough to find anything that is going to provide good steaming for under 700 (or even under 1000). You're likely looking at single boiler or thermoblock designs, the single boiler might have enough power but the wait time between brew and steam is quite annoying, the thermoblocks often lack power, and some of the very small single boilers (gaggia) both have an annoying wait time AND mediocre steam power.

Do you often find yourself making back to back drinks for multiple people, or is this just for you? If you're only making one milk drink at a time, a single boiler is annoying, but going from brew to steam is manageable. If you often make a couple drinks in a row, it gets really unworkable, as going from steam temp to brew temp takes even longer than the other way around. So basically if you think it'll mostly just be you, a single boiler with adequate steam power, like the Rancilio Silvia, would probably work well, and is only slightly over budget, maybe less if you buy one of the many used ones. You can also add PID down the road if you want more precise temp control. ECM Casa V could also work. If you think you might find yourself making a few drinks in a row, then it's probably time to consider upping your budget to get a dual boiler or heat exchanger.
Yup, definitely look to be making just one drink at a time. At most I'll be making two drinks once a week, so multiple drink capability isn't a priority for me.

Bluenoser
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#13: Post by Bluenoser »

At 2 drinks a week you don't want to spend a ton of money.. and you want maintenance to be low.. The Sette Grinder is noisy and has plastic gears that wear out .. mine wore out in 2 years, but Baratza replaced them free.. but they will wear.. The grind, however, is very good.. I sold mine and bought a flat burr grinder called an URBANIC 070.. A cheaper flat burr grinder but fairly solid in construction. Quieter and more solid than the Sette. I also aligned the burrs, which you can find instructions for online.. But if you are only doing 2 drinks a week, I'd get a good hand grinder.. then it is also portable.

You can get really good manual machines like the Robot, or Flair 58 for about $500, I think.. but for milk you'd need to buy a Bellman steamer or a NanoFoamer..

For 2 drinks a week.. I might just go out to a cafe :)

engh (original poster)
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#14: Post by engh (original poster) replying to Bluenoser »

My bad, I realized the way I phrased my last post wasn't very clear. I'd be making a drink everyday, but making multiple/back to back drinks only twice a weeks at most.

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Jeff
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#15: Post by Jeff »

Let's talk grinders first. First, ignore all the hype about flat-burr grinders. 90% of it is hype, the rest doesn't apply until you're into grinders that the burrs alone are a good fraction of your budget. Even if you're in that 10% then only in certain situations that you're unlikely to run into with coffee labeled as "for espresso".

The most affordable grinder I have used that does a good job for espresso is the 1ZPresso JX-Pro at around $160. There are a few other hand grinders out there that might be comparable and a few that are better (but can cost into the $300-400 range). If you're able and willing to trade under a minute of hand grinding for a motor in your budget, you can get better burrs and better grind quality than something like a Breville Smart Grinder Pro. I haven't found a motorized grinder that I'd recommend in "budget" range. There's an Urbanic 070 on the way to a local that I'll hopefully be able to try out and I've got a Lagom Mini coming this fall. I haven't tried either. I'd also look at the Eureka line and sort through it more than I have.

I think the Cafelat Robot is the most robust choice for making high-quality espresso at under $1,000. Given the results of others, the Flair 58 is probably in the same class. The drawback of those two is that you need something to froth or steam milk with. There are options from mechanical and battery-powered frothers through things like the Bellman steamer.

If what you're looking for is some reliably good espresso milk drinks, then I'd look at the Breville Bambino with a replacement portafilter and basket. You're probably at under $400 there. That would probably meet your basic needs and budget both. For one review, Lance Hendrick talks about it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3v-6s9OiEM

I'd avoid HX machines unless you get a killer deal on a used one and are willing to add an EricS thermometer. Ten years ago, they were the only game in town at their price point. Now the Mara X is the only HX I'd buy new, and then only if you insist on the E61 styling or adding a flow kit to an E61. Between an E61 taking 30-45 minutes to heat up and then needing to deal with flushing on an HX, they aren't as attractive to me as other options.

Keeping under $1,000 with a grinder you're probably looking at a (classic) Silvia or Gaggia. Both of those "need" some mods to get to the point where you've got reasonable temperature stability ("PID kit") and potentially brew-pressure limited at a reasonable and adjustable point ("OPV" needed on some Gaggias).

In the $1,000 to $2,000 range, many more options open up. As some examples of the various classes of machines:

* Quick Mill Silvano -- $1,200 -- close-coupled "boiler and a half" as it uses a thermoblock for steam
* Breville Dual Boiler -- $1,500 -- close-coupled dual boiler
* ECM Classika -- $1,600 -- E61-style single boiler
* Lelit Mara X -- $1,700 -- E61-style HX that manages brew temperature (not just a PID on the steam boiler)
* Lelit Elizabeth -- $1,700 -- close-coupled double boiler

If you go with the Bambino (or Robot/Flair) and decide that either:

* Making espresso in the morning is not worth it
* You love making espresso so much you want to upgrade

your cost to "rent" the machine for a while is probably a hundred or two. If you buy a more expensive machine, then it is probably 2-5 times that. (The grinder net cost could be $50 or so for a good hand grinder, or a few hundred for an entry-level electric grinder.)

Edit: Missed mentioning the Sette. My mistake. It's a solid choice at its price point as well

dilin
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#16: Post by dilin »

I am impressed with the Lelits, and either the MaraX and the Elizabeth would be great for your needs.

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Derryisreal
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#17: Post by Derryisreal »

Whatever you do, DON'T buy Silvia/Rocky!
Light roasts are to me what garlic is to vampires.

Smitward
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#18: Post by Smitward »

I think you can make legitimately great espressos and milk drinks within your range.

Robot - 420
Hand grinder - 160-340
Nanofoamer - 40
Mini scale - 25
Electric kettle - 100

Once you get it down you can do it all in less than 10 minutes without rushing.

If you want a huge upgrade from your pods with a relatively minimal investment to see if you like the specialty coffee world get a burr grinder and an aeropress, clever dripper or V60. With a $100 oxo burr and $9 plastic v60, with some great beans can be so much fun. This is where I started years ago, and admittedly now have a home set up with a niche/decent and an office set up m47/robot/nanofoamer. However I still love a great light roast pour over.

- Brandon

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Randy G.
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#19: Post by Randy G. »

Derryisreal wrote:Whatever you do, DON'T buy Silvia/Rocky!
I agree. That has been good advice for quite a few years. Two decades ago it was a good starter setup. Today it has been relegated to the "do not buy" list because the market has really opened up in so many ways and directions. Back then I found that Rocky burrs lasted about two to three years grinding an average of about two to three doubles a day. And there are a number of espresso machines that can match Silvia's performance at a lower cost.
EspressoMyEspresso.com - 2000-2023 - a good run, its time is done

rsn4534
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#20: Post by rsn4534 »

How easy it is to go down the coffee equipment and accessories rabbit hole, many of us have been there, done that.

First the hand grinder, in theory really great, cheap but quality grinds. But the best hand grinders approach the price of "reasonable" electric grinder. What I suggest is to role play grinding for one minute, you will be grinding an espresso shot. Now see if you want to do that every day. And the actual real grinding will require a bit more force than you think. But to be honest I was very close to purchasing one and then decided that for me, after me role playing grinding, I didn't want to do that daily, other folks mileage may vary.

A suggestion I will make is to "get you into the game" and allow you to develop skills and experience so that you can understand how you might evolve in the espresso/hobby. To learn how to make great espresso, develop the skills you need in grinding, tamping, pulling shots and steaming milk can all be done on the Breville Infusion. This machine has a PID (better control and information gathering of pressure and temp), it comes with four portafilter baskets (two pressurized and two non-pressurized, this is more than almost any other machine recommended in this thread). Its a decent machine that will allow you to do everything you want. Its possible you will never move on beyound this machine, but if you do you will then have opinions and why you reached them to inform your next purchase. This machine also has pre-infusion, every machine at its price point will not have this option. Its a feature rich espresso machine.

https://www.amazon.com/Breville-BES840X ... B0089SSOR6

Propaganda on the Breville line up of machines is below. I like the Fusion because it does not have a grinder. As others have recommended and I strongly suggest, get the Baratza Sette 270 (if you are lazy go for the more expensive Sette 270 Wi, it dispences shots in grams and not times as just about every other grinder does, including very expensive ones). This grinder is better than the grinder included in Breville machines, as the next model up from the Fusion will have.

https://identitycoffees.com/recommended ... es-reviews

Baratza Sette 270:

https://www.thecoffeestudio.com/online- ... odel-11270

And you will want to purchase scales, everything is done by grams in the espresso world, including water volume and extracted coffee. A good quality scale is the Timemore black mirror plus: (don't buy the white one, the numbers are fuzzy but not on the black model)

https://www.amazon.com/TIMEMORE-Digital ... B084MBRTJS

I don't flog Breville because I have one of their espresso machines, I do have the Breville Smart Grinder. I just think they are a great way to enter into the espresso world without going down the financial rabbit hole.

Good luck on your espresso journey!