Advice for "traditional" espresso machine in 2022

#1: Post by **appa** » August 17th, 2022, 2:35 pm

Hi
-I used to have a BZ02 years ago, which I had liked.
-I stopped drinking coffee for 4 years or so, and seemed to have missed the light roast espresso revolution.
-I'm getting back into the hobby and looking for a machine at around $2000 US.
-I really prefer the more "traditional medium/dark" espressos, but it seems roasts are lighter across the board, at least with US roasters.
-I have initially narrowed it down to two:
Lucca A53 aka Mini Vivaldi II (The front loading reservoir is a pretty big deal unfortunately).
BZ13 (Mostly because of my familiarity with this style of group-head, etc.)
(I like the supposedly fast warm up times of both).
-(I still have my grinders, K30 and Mazzer Mini.

-Does anyone know of significant in-cup differences between these 2 machines?
-Have roasts gotten so light that these machines are now outdated (ex. pre-infusion a must, etc.) ?

Thanks,
Jose

#2: Post by **Jeff** » August 17th, 2022, 3:05 pm

If you're pulling classic espresso, feel free to ignore the claims of doom. You don't need variable preinfusion or the latest in SSP burrs. Those both have the potential to make classic espresso worse instead of better.

A good roaster may have moved from medium-dark to medium for some of their "espresso blends", but they should have kept them relatively easy to extract and far from the challenges faced by those using "filter" coffee for espresso. Most US-based roasters seem to me to be a notch or two darker than European and Asian roasters that I know about.

The Vivaldi line is a time-proven series and should provide you with some great shots. I don't recall all the variants, but I do vaguely recall that some were plumb-in only. They come up from time to time on the used market as well.

I'm not a fan of buying a classic HX machine new in today's market. PIDs on them don't manage brew temperature. You still need a flush routine. The only exception that I know of that is generally available is the Lelit Mara X, which has a PID that effectively manages the brew-head temperature. Any E61 or HX machine that I know of

In cup, I would probably find the Vivaldi with its better temperature stability easier to repeatedly make very good espresso with than the Bezzera. There is also a reasonable belief that the 53 mm baskets on the Vivaldi are more forgiving and potentially may be richer in output than the typical 58 mm baskets.

I'd also consider units like the Lelit Elizabeth and the well-liked Breville Dual Boiler.

If don't often make milk drinks, a Cafelat Robot or Flair 58 are basically ready to go as fast as you can boil a bit of water in a kettle. They make great espresso.

If you're willing to either take a gamble, or wait for some reviews to come in, the Argos Odyssey is a spring-lever machine with steam that is under development.

August 17th, 2022, 3:42 pm

If you're pulling classic espresso, feel free to ignore the claims of doom. You don't need variable preinfusion or the latest in SSP burrs. Those both have the potential to make classic espresso worse instead of better.

Thanks for your reassurances Jeff

My latest cafe trips had me worried.

-I do want some steaming ability for smaller drinks like macchiatos and cortados a few times a week
-As far as HX's, I was used to the flushing routine of the BZ02, which was pretty straight forward since its a "dragon".
Not sure how much that has changed on the BZ13.
-Not as crazy about the looks of the Vivaldi, but it seems very practical for my situation.

Thanks again for your quick and insightful reply
Jose

#4: Post by **Jeff** » August 17th, 2022, 10:44 pm

I do not know the seller, but I just saw this under Buy/Sell -- [FS] La Spaziale Vivaldi II Espresso Machine (SF Bay area)

#5: Post by **edh** » August 18th, 2022, 2:21 am

I purchased a BZ13 earlier this year and ended up sending it back in exchange for a Profitec Pro 600. The current Bezzera vibratory pump models come with the OPV set at 12 bar. The OPV can be adjusted, but is not designed to be adjusted. It gets very noisy, likely a harmonic resonance, at anything below 11 bar. At 9 bar mine was screwed out so far that any side pressure, either from a finger or the touch of a wrench would cause it to leak.

The 12 bar setting works fine if you're pulling traditional shots in the 1:2 or up range as the pressure while brewing will be in the 8-9 bar range. The issue arises when you try to pull a proper ristretto. When you tighten the grind the machine is happy to respond to the increased resistance of the puck with increased pressure, up to 12 bars. The result in the cup is turpentine. Dialed back to 9 bar, the squealing/howling machine produced sweet, chocolatey goodness.

What ever machine you choose, be sure it has truly adjustable brew pressure,

There are plenty of roasters in the Pacific North West still providing wonderful, classic, medium to medium-dark espresso blends. Vivace, Ladro, Tony's, Blossom, and Lusso are just a few to check out.

Ed

#6: Post by **MCal2003** » August 18th, 2022, 10:35 am

Not really advice. Just an opinion. Manual Lever is about "traditional" as it gets.

My basic give and take on the espresso experience. You can follow trends in the hope it leads you to something better. At worst revert to what you liked in the past. So for what's it worth. JMHO, simple is sometimes better. Few decades of pulling shots using a variety of hardware. Was offline for awhile. Wasn't aware until researching for a "better" grinder for home use the trend towards larger flat burr, light roast espresso beans..... Personal preference for FC to FC+ roasts.

Mostly using the Flair58. Relatively inexpensive. Simple and user friendly operation. Not too many parts to wear out and maintain. Easy to maintain. Allows flexibility in playing around with different pressure profiles, temperatures. IMHO, capable of pulling a good shot. Simple, efficient workflow. Not the machine for someone that wants, needs to pull rapid back to back shots. Machine to consider and then consider the option to upgrade your grinder with the balance of your budget?

August 18th, 2022, 3:24 pm

Thanks all for your input,
Jeff, unfortunately the machine in marketplace is not a reservoir model.

Noel, I don't really like the lever options for various reasons.
If the Cremina wasn't so expensive, I would get that, maybe when I retire.
If I decide to get into light roasts in the future, then I will consider it more.

Based on the input above, I will probably go with the Lucca/Mini Vivaldi.
I like the flexibility of dual boiler, you can improve the looks with wood side panels, and the front load reservoir helps with my low cabinets.
I also just found that its has a temperature offset function to address a colder group (I liked the BZ because of the heated group head).

Thanks again....

#8: Post by **Milligan** » August 19th, 2022, 1:26 pm

Another to consider with a different aesthetic but hits all of your needs is the Rancilio Silvia Pro X. Dual boiler, dual PID, commercial looks, soft preinfusion (matter of debate if that is a big deal or not), and I think it is a bit cheaper than the Vivaldi. It has the 58mm portafilter if you wanted a more standard size for aftermarket accessories. After using a smaller portafilter in a Breville Barista Express, I appreciate the larger portafilter. It seems easier to WDT than the deeper ones plus it feels more commercial and heavy in the hand. You'd be able to find more accessories on the used market for 58mm too.

August 19th, 2022, 4:14 pm

Thanks Milligan, the Pro X does looks very appealing, not sure how I missed it.
These machines seem pretty close, and the Silivia is a bit cheaper
I might still go with the Lucca because of the front loading reservoir.
(I'd rather not have to move the machine to refill or clean the top loading ones).
However, I am going to think about it a bit more.

#10: Post by **gabeholloway** » August 19th, 2022, 4:56 pm

If you're at a $2k or less budget, into a fast warm-up time, and require a front or side loading reservoir, check out the Ascaso Steel Duo. It uses dual thermoblocks (coils?) and you may find some polarized opinions on that among HB users, but it seems to tick some boxes for you. I think that the OPV on it is easily adjusted, as well. It markets pre-infusion, so that may be of some help if or when you dabble outside of dark.

I also just noticed that Chris Coffee has an "open box" Mini Vivaldi II for $1931 USD.